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WGAN-TV | Understanding Level of Detail (LOD) Meets Matterport Pro3 Camera18231

WGAN Forum
Founder &
WGAN-TV Podcast
Host
Atlanta, Georgia
DanSmigrod private msg quote post Address this user

Text Me 5 Minutes Before WGAN-TV is Live | WGAN-TV | MSPs: Understanding Level of Detail (LOD) Meets Matterport Pro3 Camera | Guest: Robotic Imaging Chief Operations Officer Will Buzan | www.RoboticImaging.com | Thursday, 2 March 2022 | Episode: 179 | WGAN Forum Member Name: @MikeChawaga

WGAN-TV | Understanding Level of Detail (LOD) Meets Matterport Pro3 Camera

Hi All,

My subject matter expert guest on this WGAN-TV Live at 5 show 5 pm ET Thursday, 2 March 2023 is Robotic Imaging Chief Operations Officer Will Buzan:

WGAN-TV | MSPs: Understanding Level of Detail (LOD) Meets Matterport Pro3 Camera

===

[The following text was substituted on Monday, 6 March 2023 at the request of Robotic Imaging to add clarity that Robotic Imaging does not use - and does not recommend the use of - a Matterport Pro3 Camera when the deliverable requires accurate measurements.]

"WGAN-TV | Matterport Pro3 Camera and its use in conjunction with AEC documentation

If you are a Matterport Service Provider that owns a Matterport Pro3 Camera - or is planning to buy one - here are the use cases for AEC:

1. Basic marketing/conceptual drawings when measurements can be approximated
2. Visual confirmation of AEC assets
3. Remote collaboration amongst AEC stakeholders

My subject matter expert guest on this WGAN-TV Live at 5 show is Robotic Imaging Co-Founder and COO, Will Buzan

Potential AEC clients may ask you about Level of Detail (LOD) when doing scans. And, this has nothing to do with Matterport.

Will will help us understand captured detail from the Matterport Pro3 in these environments, including showing examples."

===

Potential AEC clients may ask you about Level of Detail (LOD) when doing scans. And, these terms have precise meaning.

Will will help us understand Level of Detail, including showing examples.

1. Matterport point cloud vs. Leica RTC360 point cloud
2. LOD meaning and interpretation for AEC - demo various level of detail
3. no legal verbiage or disclaimer for MSPs
4. What MSPs should be super-careful about?
5. When/how MSPs might partner with Robotic Imaging
6. What jobs in the AEC space can MSPs do with a Matterport Pro3 Camera?

Two related WGAN-TV shows (videos below):

1. WGAN-TV Transcript: Matterport MatterPak and E57 File: Pro3 vs. Pro2/BLK360
2. WGAN-TV Transcript: | Matterport + Leica BLK360: 20 Questions (and Answers)

What questions should I ask Will about LOD and Matterport Pro3 Camera on this WGAN-TV show?

Best,

Dan

About Robotic Imagining (from the Robotic Imaging website)

What is Robotic Imaging?
Our team consists of reality capture technicians throughout the world digitizing the future of industrial, commercial and residential real estate. Robotic Imaging digitizes the world with high definition laser scanners and reality models online. Architects, Engineers, Construction, Developers and project stakeholders work with our data to accelerate real estate development and portfolio scalability.

How does Robotic Imaging work?
Request and scan and we will deploy Robotic Imaging on your site. LiDAR, Drones, BIM and VR are foundational for our applications.

How much does Robotic Imaging cost?
The more accurate to reality, the more time and cost. Our high definition laser scanning can collect LiDAR and colorized RGB values at a variety of densities specific to your project. Reach out for a quote: capture@roboimg.com

Where and When is Robotic Imaging available?
When your property is accessible, scanning can occur 24/7, on weekends, outside hours of operation and/or under specific certifications or procedures.

How did Robotic Imaging start?
Founded in Philadelphia by Real Estate Developers and Programmers. Reach out and connect with us: info@roboimg.com

Robotic Imaging Links

1. Robotic Imaging Website
2. Mike Chawaga LinkedIn Profile
3. Robotic Imaging Facebook Page
4. Robotic Imaging YouTube Channel
5. Robotic Imaging on Twitter: @RoboticImaging
6. Robotic Imaging on Instagram: roboticimaging
7. Contact Mike Chawaga: capture@roboimg.com

---

WGAN-TV | Matterport MatterPak and E57 File: Pro3 versus Both Pro2 and BLK360 | Guest: Robotic Imaging Co-Founder and CEO Mike Chawaga | www.RoboticImaging.com | Thursday, 3 November 2022 | Episode: 166 | WGAN Forum Member Name: @MikeChawaga

WGAN-TV Transcript: Matterport MatterPak and E57 File: Pro3 vs. Pro2/BLK360

WGAN-TV | Matterport + Leica BLK360: 20 Questions (and Answers) | Guest: Robotic Imaging Co-Founder Mike Chawaga | Aired: Thursday, 4 November 2021 | Episode 124 | Website: www.RoboticImaging.io

WGAN-TV Transcript: | Matterport + Leica BLK360: 20 Questions (and Answers)

---





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Post 1 IP   flag post
Sdoughtie private msg quote post Address this user
I would disagree with some of this. I use all of my scans from the Pro3 to produce as-built surveys. I do spot dimensions inside and on elevations when I am on site. I have found that the pro3 point cloud to be accurate.

I have purchased both the matterpak and a E57 for projects for comparisons. I will note that the matterpak will have some alignment "issues". If you want an accurate point clould then you should use the E57 file which has raw data from the sensor. To be honest, I wouldn't give a client a point cloud from any scanner, that required stitching, as absolutely accurate. There is always going to be accuracy loss when stitching.

I am not sure but I get the impression that the E57 files is an aligned data set of all of the raw sweeps in the project. Where the matterpak seems to be a point cloud generated from the matterport model.

It seems to be this workflow:

Scan of the site -> Aignment inside matterports data center -> E57 Data -> Generation of the matterport model -> Matterpak xyz and OBJ files
Post 2 IP   flag post
WGAN Forum
Founder &
WGAN-TV Podcast
Host
Atlanta, Georgia
DanSmigrod private msg quote post Address this user

Text Me 5 Minutes Before WGAN-TV is Live | WGAN-TV | MSPs: Understanding Level of Detail (LOD) Meets Matterport Pro3 Camera | Guest: Robotic Imaging Chief Operations Officer Will Buzan | www.RoboticImaging.com | Thursday, 2 March 2022 | Episode: 179 | WGAN Forum Member Name: @MikeChawaga

WGAN-TV | Understanding Level of Detail (LOD) Meets Matterport Pro3 Camera

Hi All,

If you are a Matterport Service Provider that owns a Matterport Pro3 Camera - or is planning to buy one - and you are interested in scanning for Architects, Engineers and Construction (AEC) professionals, this WGAN-TV Live at 5 show will help you understand if/when you can use the Matterport Pro3 Camera for:

1. Outdoor Elevations
2. As-Builts
3. E57 Files
4. Matterport MatterPaks
5. Accuracy of Measurement
6. Large commercial spaces
7. Land for sale

My subject matter expert guest on this WGAN-TV Live at 5 show 5 pm ET today Thursday, 2 March 2023 is Robotic Imaging Chief Operations Officer Will Buzan:

WGAN-TV | MSPs: Understanding Level of Detail (LOD) Meets Matterport Pro3 Camera
Post 3 IP   flag post
WGAN Forum
Founder &
WGAN-TV Podcast
Host
Atlanta, Georgia
DanSmigrod private msg quote post Address this user
WGAN-TV | MSPs: Understanding Level of Detail (LOD) Meets Matterport Pro3 Camera | Guest: Robotic Imaging Chief Operations Officer Will Buzan | www.RoboticImaging.com | Thursday, 2 March 2022 | Episode: 179 | WGAN Forum Member Name: @MikeChawaga

WGAN-TV | Understanding Level of Detail (LOD) Meets Matterport Pro3 Camera

Hi All,

If you are a Matterport Service Provider that owns a Matterport Pro3 Camera - or is planning to buy one - and you are interested in scanning for Architects, Engineers and Construction (AEC) professionals (and owners and developers), this WGAN-TV Live at 5 show (recording above) will help you understand if/when you can use the Matterport Pro3 Camera for:

1. Outdoor Elevations
2. As-Builts
3. E57 Files
4. Matterport MatterPaks
5. Accuracy of Measurement
6. Large commercial spaces
7. Land for sale

My subject matter expert guest on this WGAN-TV Live at 5 show 5 pm ET today Thursday, 2 March 2023 is Robotic Imaging Chief Operations Officer Will Buzan:

WGAN-TV | MSPs: Understanding Level of Detail (LOD) Meets Matterport Pro3 Camera

Follow-up questions?

Best,

Dan
Post 4 IP   flag post
Sdoughtie private msg quote post Address this user
I think the issue is we are comparing apples to oranges. LOD is referring to a BIM model. A pointcloud is not a BIM model and can only achieve LOD 200 according to the LOD specifications.

1. Pre-Design 100
Generic placeholders devoid of any physical information, such as symbols, are used to represent building components. In other words, an element with a LOD of 100 does not display details like sizes, shapes, and precise placements. Other components may provide general information regarding LOD 100 elements, but at this point, it is only an estimate.

2. Schematic Design 200
LOD 200 elements use placeholders with attributes, such as dimensions, forms, locations, etc., making them slightly more sophisticated than LOD 100 elements. Additionally, non-geometric data may be related to LOD 200 elements. While some LOD 200 pieces have distinguishable shapes, others just have standardized shapes that signify the volumes occupied. At this stage of development, all information is still merely an estimate.

3. Design Development 300
The geometry and physical characteristics of LOD 300 items are realistic at this point despite being graphic representations like LOD 200. In other words, the LOD 300 models’ information can be applied to the building process.

4. Construction Documentation 350
The same information as LOD 300 is contained in LOD 350 elements, but they additionally have interactions with other building parts like supports and connections. The installation of the component and its interactions with other building systems are shown in a 350 model.

5. Construction Stage 400
Details for fabrication and installation are included at this stage. In other words, BIM engineers can create the components represented by LOD 400 elements using several details and information.

6. As-Built 500
LOD 500 models are precise, field-verified representations of building components following construction. Facility managers can utilize 500 elements as a guide for operation and maintenance as they represent the current installation.
Post 5 IP   flag post
Sdoughtie private msg quote post Address this user
here is a link to the GSA (US Government Service Administration) LOD specifications.

https://www.gsa.gov/real-estate/design-and-construction/3d4d-building-information-modeling/bim-software-guidelines/document-guides/level-of-detail
Post 6 IP   flag post
dave3d private msg quote post Address this user
We do a bit of work with architects. I think you’ll find there’s LOD and then there’s LOD. Wouldn’t want this confusing at all right? Level of detail and level of development aren’t the same. Look into both till you understand the difference. With some searching you can find LOD expressed in mm of accuracy. Blk360 gen1 just barely crosses over to LOD 300 (higher is more accurate). Its highest accuracy is 6mm/10m. I’m not looking at a reference right now but I think the minimum accuracy for LOD 300 is 8mm/10m. Since pro3 doesn’t get better than 20mm/10m it’s an LOD 200 device. So folks may use pro3 and do some additional spot measurements in specific areas. I think of it as, for the most part, we work at the LOD 200 level which is great for initial planning and such. The pro2 e57 imported into revit is like working in fog. Can’t tell where the lines go easily. Pro3 is better but there are high end scanners with much more accuracy that are easier for architects to work with.

Matterport pros think of pro3s and blk360s as crazy expensive high end equipment. But in the construction scanning world they are viewed as “how could anything that cheap be accurate”. There’s a niche overlap we fit in and in my opinion it’s the LOD for design work and a walk through architects can accurately compare to when creating the BIM.
Post 7 IP   flag post
Sdoughtie private msg quote post Address this user
As I said, I use matterport and the pro3 for documentation purposes for my clients. It gives them a very good product. I usually scan the building outside then inside. Then I take the plan from the matterport app and mark it up in Adobe Fresco (I don't trust Sketchbook anymore).

I haven't experienced dimensions being off 20mm over 10M, but I would not give a client a pointcloud as being absolutely accurate. The as-built drawings are what my clients will design off of.

I think when someone says Level of Detail, wouldn't the GSA LOD Specification (or better yet ISO 19650-1:2018) be the guide and definition?

Below is a project I am currently working on. Seems accurate. I started to do more than spot checks because I find it time consuming to actually measure the pointcloud when I can just write the dimension down on site. Also, note the misalignment on the plan and correction in the pointcloud.





Post 8 IP   flag post
dave3d private msg quote post Address this user
For me it’s been a bit since I went through detailed understanding of Level of Detail, Level of Development and Level of accuracy. But LOA was what gave me my understanding of LOD. I think the US Institute of Building Documentation site has more info on it. LOA gave me levels of accuracy I could compare to camera specs to get a better understanding of LOD they were capable of. I took the manufacturer specs for each camera. When we bought our BLK360 it was to get to LOA 30, (6mm)
The new BLK can get to 40. ( 4mm) but doesn’t work with Matterport. I looked at LOA as comparable to corresponding LODs. LOA 40/LOD 400. LOA 30/LOD 300. Pro 2s and pros fall under LOA 20 specs at 1% to 2%, Matterport gives the pro3 spec at 20mm, so I see those as LOD 200. The pro3 maybe a 2.5 . Not saying at all i’m correct just how I process it. I’ve had architects unhappy with point cloud definition on e57 on pro2s. In my understanding true as built is LOD 500. Those .5mm scanners that do LOA 50 are what 100K or so each? But this is just my take. I recommend most of all talking to the architect you’re working with and understanding what they need for the job at hand.
Post 9 IP   flag post
Sdoughtie private msg quote post Address this user
LOA is definitely the issue. Isn't 20mm over 10M = 0.2%?
Post 10 IP   flag post
dave3d private msg quote post Address this user
Pretty accurate agreed! But we spoke with a business that ordered a custom cabinet (long) be made and it came in like an inch too long with a Pro2. I think that was like a 20K mistake on the redo. So we’re happy to state manufacturer specs and that we’re good for design but not as built. Again…that’s just us.
Post 11 IP   flag post
Sdoughtie private msg quote post Address this user
But we spoke with a business that ordered a custom cabinet (long) be made and it came in like an inch too long with a Pro2. I think that was like a 20K mistake on the redo. So we’re happy to state manufacturer specs and that we’re good for design but not as built.

OMG, that's horrible. I'm sorry that happened. No, I wouldn't trust these tools for that type of work. Make the casework contractor do their own field work!

When I was a PM at a general contractor (>20 years ago) the bid process was horrible. If you submitted an honest bids then you wouldn't get jobs. We would literally do a cost estimate then factor in all of the errors and omissions with the plans knowing that we would get change orders. It really sucked for the whole industry. The owner wasn't happy, architects weren't happy and of course it sucked being dirty. I quit after a year.
Post 12 IP   flag post
dave3d private msg quote post Address this user
I think probably a simpler way to think about this (for me) is Pro3 accuracy at 20mm is about 3/4 inch at 10m. To get to LOD300 you'd be about 1/4" at 10m instead (which is what the highest BLK360 gen1 setting gives - 6mm). Unfortunately at that resolution on BLK gen1 you feel like you're watching paint dry. Start the scan, go make coffee, have some lunch come back and do the next scan. Gen 2 completely different. Smaller scanning radius but 20 sec for a scan and you no longer have to place the scans in Revit. That's automated too. But no Matterport connectivity (yet). Who knows, maybe someday? Gen 2 also loses thermal imaging of the gen1. For us to get to LOD 300 with Matterport is downright painful time wise.
Post 13 IP   flag post
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