WGAN-TV | Matterport Pro3 Camera: First Impressions; plus, Pro3 versus Pro2 and Pro3 versus Leica BLK360 | Guests: Greater Birmingham, Alabama-based RKO Photography President Roger Owens (@rko1) and RKO Photography Vice President Kay Owens | Thursday, 6 October 2022 | RKO Photography | WGAN Forum Member Name: @rko1


Birmingham, Alabama-based RKO Photography President Roger Owens with a Leica BLK360 (left) and Matterport Pro2 3D Camera.

Matterport Pro3 Camera shot Tour courtesy of Birmingham, Alabama-based RKO Photography President Roger Owens

Matterport Leica BLK360 Scanner shot Tour courtesy of Birmingham, Alabama-based RKO Photography President Roger Owens

Transcript: WGAN-TV | Matterport Pro3 Camera: First Impressions and Pro3 versus BLK360

Hi All,

[Transcript below ...]

1. What are the first impressions of the Matterport Pro3 Camera by a Matterport Service Provider that uses a Pro2 (and has used a BLK360 scanner)?
2. How does the Matterport Pro3 Camera compare to a Matterport Pro2 Camera?
3. How does the Matterport Pro3 Camera compare to a Leica BLK360 Scanner?


On WGAN-TV Live at 5 on Thursday, 6 October 2022:

WGAN-TV | Matterport Pro3 Camera: First Impressions and Matterport Pro3 versus Leica BLK360

My guests are:

1. Greater Birmingham, Alabama-based RKO Photography President Roger Owens (@rko1)
2. Greater Birmingham, Alabama-based RKO Photography Vice President Kay Owens

RKO Photography has team members in these locations (and travels):

1. Birmingham, AL
2. Tulsa, OK
3. New Orleans, LA
4. Memphis, TN
5. North Carolina (coming soon)
6. South Carolina (coming soon)
7. [travels to Missouri, Kansas, Arkansas, Oklahoma and Texas]

RKO Photography has eight team members and expects to reach 10-12 by the end of 2022.

As long-time Matterport Pros - with eight (8) Matterport Pro2 3D Cameras, two (2) Leica BLK360 Camera/Scanner, two (2) Trimble x7s; multiple 360 1-click cameras (Ricoh Theta Z1s, Insta360s; and now seven (7) Matterport Pro3 Cameras, Roger and Kay can speak at length about their Matterport Pro3 Camera first impressions versus the Matterport Pro2 3D Camera and versus Leica BLK360 Camera/Scanner.

"Currently Matterport probably makes up 50 to 60% of our business, but we are developing a sales force and are actually beginning to pick up large customers directly," writes Roger. "We do not and will not compete with the people who are giving us work, but though hard work and developing our personnel and our system, it is all coming together. It is all about relationships. We are also developing branding through social media."

RKO Photography specializes in large commercial spaces; including a project that was nearly 500,000 SQ FT that it completed using Leica BLK360 scanners.

Questions that I should ask Roger and Kay during this WGAN-TV Live at 5 show?

Roger and Kay were previously my guest on this WGAN-TV Live at 5 show about their Matterport journey:

How RKO Photography Grew to Seven Matterport Pro Cameras and 1 Leica BLK360

Episode 110-WGAN-TV How RKO Photography Grew to 7 Matterport Cameras + 1 Leica BLK360 with greater Birmingham, Alabama-based RKO Photography President Roger Owens (@rko1) and Vice President Kay Owens. | Thursday, 8 July 2021

Best,

Dan


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Matterport Pro3 Camera | Matterport Pro3 Camera Acceleration Kit

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[00:00:02]
Dan Smigrod: Hi all. I'm Dan Smigrod, Founder of the We Get Around Network Forum. Today is Thursday, October 6, 2022 and you're watching WGAN-TV Live at 5.

We have an awesome show for you today: Matterport Pro3 Camera First Impressions; Including Pro3 versus Pro2 and Pro3 versus Leica BLK360. Our guests – to talk to us about this topic today – are RKO Photography President Roger Owens and RKO Photography Vice President Kay Owens. Their website, RKO.Photography. Roger, Kay, thanks for being back on the show.

[00:00:47]
Kay Owens: Thank you.

[00:00:48]
Roger Owens: Nice to be here, Dan.

[00:00:51]
Dan Smigrod: Hey, Kay. Before we jump into the topic of today's show, give us a snapshot on RKO Photography today.

[00:01:05]
Roger Owens: Well, we have grown quite a bit thanks to spatial scanning. Obviously, as you mentioned, we have BLK360s, we have a couple of those.

We have – soon to have, even though we have a couple here that we're using – but we have seven of the Pro3's that will hit our door hopefully next week. Then we have a whole bunch of others, including some Trimble X7s.

But, that has just been a godsend to us since we were able to get into that and actually get out of photography for the most part in the residential area and go to commercial scanning. We cover somewhere around: 16 or 17 states. We have a number of associates; part of the team now, and we're very busy.

[00:02:05]
Dan Smigrod: That's a lot of background, but I want to probe a little bit more and unpack that a little bit. It sounds like only commercial services at this point. What are those services that RKO Photography are offering?

[00:02:20]
Roger Owens: Well, we still do a little bit of photography for two potential clients, but they also do all their scanning: we scan their properties; they are builders. We provide, for the most part, scanning for everybody else.

That's the one thing we do well. We all do drones. We have drones and we provide drone services, video and photographs to go along with the scanning.

[00:02:53]
Dan Smigrod: Scanning is a general topic. Help me understand the use cases of the scanning that RKO Photography is doing. What are clients doing with the scanning?

[00:03:05]
Roger Owens: Some of them are as-built, just like most other people. Some of them are for marketing. Then we do some just for historical purposes.

For example, insurance. They like to have their house scanned and that way they have a record for the insurance company of what property they have in case something were to happen to the house.

[00:03:33]
Dan Smigrod: Are you doing any elevations?

[00:03:36]
Roger Owens: Not at this point. No.

[00:03:38]
Dan Smigrod: Construction documentation?

[00:03:40]
Roger Owens: Yes. We do both houses for new home builders and we have just done several for commercial: progressive shooting of properties.

[00:03:58]
Dan Smigrod: I think we'll talk about this when we jump into the topic. But in terms of scanning with the BLK360, you're really doing two deliverables: One, is Matterport paired with the BLK360 or am I wrong?

[00:04:16]
Roger Owens: That is correct. With the Pro3's, now we don't have to obviously.

[00:04:23]
Dan Smigrod: We'll jump into that in-depth. I just wanted to get my hands around RKO Photography today. You're also using the BLK360 by itself; not paired with Matterport.

[00:04:37]
Roger Owens: Yes.

[00:04:38]
Dan Smigrod: Okay. We'll talk about that. In terms of the number of employees of RKO Photography today, Thursday, October 6, 2022.

[00:04:49]
Roger Owens: Nine.

[00:04:50]
Dan Smigrod: Nine. Any plans to grow that by the end of the year?

[00:04:53]
Roger Owens: Yes. We hope to have about 15 employees.

[00:04:59]
Dan Smigrod: You mentioned that you operated in a number of states. I think in terms of the city. Birmingham, AL where you're located, Tulsa, OK; New Orleans, LA; Memphis, TN. Any particular cities in North Carolina?

[00:05:17]
Roger Owens: We're in Columbia, SC; Charlotte, NC.

[00:05:25]
Dan Smigrod: I believe you've also done scanning in Missouri?

[00:05:29]
Roger Owens: Missouri, Kansas, out of our Tulsa, OK office, yes.

[00:05:32]
Dan Smigrod: Okay.

[00:05:33]
Roger Owens: And Arkansas at the Tulsa office.

[00:05:36]
Dan Smigrod: In Arkansas. It's almost a misnomer to say RKO Photography based in Birmingham, AL. I guess that's true, but you're actually covering many U.S. states today.

[00:05:47]
Roger Owens: That is correct, yes.

[00:05:48]
Dan Smigrod: Either through the offices that you have or clients that are asking you to travel?

[00:05:55]
Roger Owens: That is correct.

[00:06:00]
Dan Smigrod: Roger, Kay, we did a show previously back in July of 2021; Matterport Customer Journey: How RKO Photography Grew.

You've grown so much since that last show a year ago and you have plans to grow more by the end of this year. What is success? What are you doing right at RKO Photography that you stay very busy?

[00:06:27]
Roger Owens: Well, that's strange you should ask that because a lot of people actually call me or text me or email me and they want to know how we stay so busy when they can't.

Sometimes it's the location, but the one thing that I believe in wholeheartedly and one thing that you have to do that people appreciate is developing relationships. I don't just know the people that we work with the sender's business, but I know wives' names,

I know animals' names, I know kids' names as you and I had chatted the other day about. It's something that people appreciate. They can hear the sincerity, they can hear the passion that you have for what you do when you talk to them, not when you text and email them. To me that is absolutely essential in this day and time.

[00:07:25]
Dan Smigrod: Awesome. As we transition to today's topic, I think the backstory is you're super-busy. You got a lot of people. You got a lot of gear, including seven Matterport Pro3 Cameras on order, you have two Leica BLK360, the first-generation, I believe, eight Matterport Pro2 3D Cameras. A lot of gear staying; very busy.

[00:07:56]
Dan Smigrod: Seems like you probably could do a pretty good job evaluating a Matterport Pro3 Camera in context to all the scanning that you're doing and compared to a Pro2 and compared to a BLK360.

Really, my first question on today's topic is, given that you've done three scans with the Matterport Pro3 Camera prior to today's show – Maybe, in fact, you could tell us about: 1) what were those three projects and 2) what were your first impressions?

[00:08:32]
Roger Owens: Well, today for example, I scanned a Zaxby's restaurant, a new-build in Oxford, AL which is in Anniston, AL; right outside Anniston, AL and I also did a third car wash. We have a deal worked out with a local company that builds car washes all over the South.

We'd already done two previous car washes (Pro3, BLK360) which I've shared with you, as you know. But this one I'm working on is a little different, actually being that – we did the one yesterday with the Pro3 and today with the Pro3; first one with the BLK360.

[00:09:16]
Dan Smigrod: A completed restaurant, Zaxby's, or in construction?

[00:09:21]
Roger Owens: No, Dan. It opened August 2022.

[00:09:25]
Dan Smigrod: Second, the car wash. That's in the midst of construction and you sent a sample; You sent that Matterport tour to me earlier. I went ahead and posted the Pro3 tour in the We Get Around Network Forum: www.WGANForum.com

In the search box, enter: Pro3 RKO Photography The examples that we're going to talk about, both the one of the Pro3 car washes and a BLK360 scan of different car washes are both now posted in the We Get Around Network Forum. Kay, and you use the Pro3 as well?

[00:10:06]
Kay Owens: Yes.

[00:10:07]
Dan Smigrod: What did you scan?

[00:10:09]
Kay Owens: I scanned the car wash yesterday. Roger scanned one today.

[00:10:13]
Dan Smigrod: Two different car washes.

[00:10:15]
Kay Owens: Two different car washes.

[00:10:15]
Roger Owens: We actually scanned another one about two weeks ago.

[00:10:23]
Dan Smigrod: Given that you've now done two different car washes and a restaurant with the Matterport Pro3 Camera, What's your first impressions?

[00:10:38]
Kay Owens: Can you see that?

[00:10:39]
Dan Smigrod: 17 minutes.

[00:10:41]
Kay Owens: Seconds.

[00:10:42]
Roger Owens: 16.96 seconds.

[00:10:43]
Kay Owens: 16.96 seconds is how long it took for that Pro3 camera to spin, as opposed to three minutes and 40 seconds for the BLK360. Less than 20 seconds is what we're saying.

[00:10:58]
Dan Smigrod: Okay, So your first observation: fast. The top line, the Pro3 camera is fast.

[00:11:06]
Kay Owens: Fast. It was very exciting. ;-)

[00:11:09]
Roger Owens: The transfer rate is second to none between the Pro3 camera and the iPad, you actually can scan and by the time you pick the camera up and set it down, it's ready to scan again and has already transferred the data and it's already showing on your iPad.

[00:11:28]
Dan Smigrod: Almost as fast as you can move the Matterport Pro3 Camera. You're ready to do your next scan.

[00:11:33]
Roger Owens: Exactly. Just very impressive.

[00:11:38]
Dan Smigrod: Speed; fast. Transfer rate; fast. Those two things: other first impressions?

[00:11:45]
Kay Owens: I think the difference in the HDR on the scans themselves – out in the sun – is a major factor. The sun gives streaks on the BLK360. There's not a lot you can do about that. But with the Pro3, those didn't seem to be prevalent with the photos.

[00:12:07]
Roger Owens: The color is a lot more true too really with the Pro3.

[00:12:11]
Dan Smigrod: That's almost three different things. First is the fact that you can scan outdoors with the Pro3, where you really can't with the Pro2.

But then when you start comparing it to the BLK360, the quality of the photography outdoors is way better with the Pro3 versus the BLK360 and the color quality of the image; quality better. Is that true? Did you find the image quality inside with the Pro3 better than a BLK360 versus in a Pro2?

[00:12:44]
Roger Owens: It was at least as good. I really haven't sat down with the Zaxby's and really gone through it. The car wash; part of it was inside yesterday.

[00:12:54]
Kay Owens: The colors were very vivid.

[00:12:56]
Roger Owens: Very vivid.

[00:13:00]
Kay Owens: I have not sat down and looked at the computer side-by-side. I'll have to do that.

[00:13:05]
Dan Smigrod: In terms of the Pro2 – I think what I heard, clearly, the Pro3 versus the BLK360: the Pro3, clearly, is better photography. The question of Pro3 versus Pro2; I think what I heard was, at least as good as and maybe better. But you haven't even had time to really dive into that?

[00:13:31]
Roger Owens: That is correct. Yes.

[00:13:32]
Dan Smigrod: Even though you've done the scans. Again, we posted one of the car washes that Roger and Kay shot this week on the We Get Around Network Forum. Other observations about the Pro3 about your shoot.

[00:13:50]
Roger Owens: It's lighter. It's not tremendously lighter. I thought it would be along the lines of a BLK360, but it's smaller format, it is lighter than the Pro2. As everybody knows, if you're moving the Pro2 around a lot, you better work out because eventually it will get to your shoulders.

[00:14:12]
Dan Smigrod: Yes. I wanted to say the Pro3 is about a third of the weight of the Pro2. It sounds like if you're picking up and moving the Pro3 constantly, it's going to be less wear and tear on you physically holding it.

[00:14:29]
Roger Owens: Much.

[00:14:30]
Dan Smigrod: Did you have any sense – I think of when I move a Pro Camera, when I move a Matterport Pro Camera, I'm grabbing the tripod. Is that where you're grabbing?

[00:14:41]
Roger Owens: Yes. Picking up the tripod with two hands.

[00:14:45]
Dan Smigrod: Not where the quick release connects from the camera to the tripod?

[00:14:57]
Kay Owens: Because I'm overly concerned that I'd pull it off. I'm the safety girl.

[00:15:02]
Roger Owens: I do –

[00:15:03]
Kay Owens: I like two hands and make sure –

[00:15:06]
Roger Owens: I just find it more comfortable for me to lift it by the two tripod poles instead of either the extension that you have in the middle. Or trying to grab it up here; no. I don't feel comfortable doing that. Not only that, we're not that tall anyway, so it's more comfortable for us just to go like this and pick it up and move it up.

[00:15:26]
Dan Smigrod: Good. You have on order seven Matterport Pro3 Cameras. What gave you that – Do you still feel confident about that purchase? Are you happy that you've done that?

[00:15:43]
Roger Owens: I wish we could have gotten 10 or 12.

[00:15:49]
Dan Smigrod: Why is that?

[00:15:51]
Roger Owens: Because we try to furnish the equipment for all of our team, so when they go out they have the equipment they need in all the different areas we're in.

[00:16:07]
Dan Smigrod: I think what I'm hearing is you like to have everybody have doubles of gear; particularly when they're traveling. If there was a failure on a piece of gear that you have a backup?

[00:16:16]
Roger Owens: That's true.

[00:16:21]
Dan Smigrod: Other initial impressions? I'll give you some keywords: outdoors.

[00:16:28]
Roger Owens: Well, we didn't test it a long ways, but we did stretch it some yesterday and found that it, scanned every single time. We didn't have one failure as far as moving it out some distance.

[00:16:44]
Dan Smigrod: No misalignment errors. I think of moving a Matterport Pro2 Camera maybe every 6 to 10 feet. Do you have any sense of how far apart you tried with the Pro3?

[00:16:57]
Kay Owens: Probably 25 feet easy.

[00:16:58]
Roger Owens: 25 to 30 feet.

[00:17:01]
Dan Smigrod: I think Matterport actually rates it at about 33 feet from scan-to-scan and has consistent results. Why is it important to you that you could do 25 feet instead of 6 to 10 feet?

[00:17:17]
Roger Owens: Well, we recently did, if you know, Schneider Electric. We did a manufacturing facility up in Lexington, KY about two months ago. About half a million square feet. We had to use the BLK360. That's what they wanted anyway.

But not only was it slow, but you had a lot of failure with it inside the plant. If we could have, anytime we tried to stretch it out to 15 feet, we would start having problems. It's important that – we could have gone 30 feet in some cases because they had some open space and if you had to fill it in for some reason, you can always do that, but we could have gotten done much faster.

The BLK360 scanning is slower, as you know, because we set the BLK360 on medium density.

[00:18:15]
Dan Smigrod: You use the BLK360 on the Schneider Electric facility?

[00:18:21]
Roger Owens: Yes. We had three cameras going. We had three cameras going.

[00:18:24]
Kay Owens: With the Matterport Capture app because they wanted to walk through.

[00:18:27]
Roger Owens: Yes.

[00:18:27]
Dan Smigrod: They wanted Matterport. There's a lot of subtlety here, so we'll see if we can break it down a little bit.

[00:18:38]
Dan Smigrod: If you had, had the Matterport Pro3 Camera to shoot the Schneider Electric facility, what would have been the positive outcomes as a result of that?

[00:18:56]
Roger Owens: Well, we would've been done probably in two days instead of three days.

[00:19:00]
Dan Smigrod: Significantly less time, 2) I think I heard reduce, or perhaps eliminate alignment errors.

[00:19:12]
Roger Owens: Yes absolutely.

[00:19:13]
Dan Smigrod: Do alignment errors drive you crazy?

[00:19:16]
Roger Owens: Yes, they do.

[00:19:19]
Dan Smigrod: But, if you're using the BLK360, I imagine you didn't have the alignment issues, did you?

[00:19:28]
Roger Owens: With the BLK360, we had scan failures.

[00:19:32]
Dan Smigrod: Scan failures?

[00:19:33]
Roger Owens: Yes. Unable to complete or something like that, which typically means you've got some data still in the camera from the previous scan and it won't allow you to complete. You have to re-initialize the camera, turn it off, turn it back on.

[00:19:48]
Dan Smigrod: I think what I heard Kay say, maybe Roger you said, so you have multiple settings on a Leica BLK360, first-generation scanner, I want to say it's three different settings in terms of: Low, Medium and High density.

There's a trade-off between how much time the scan takes versus the quality of the imagery. Is that also in terms of the quality of the scan data?

[00:20:12]
Roger Owens: Yes. The Medium Density setting and the High Density; you're going to get a better density.

[00:20:19]
Dan Smigrod: The medium density was sufficient for this client, was that the one that was still taking three minutes for it to rotate, process the data and upload it to the iPad?

[00:20:30]
Roger Owens: Three minutes and 20 seconds.

[00:20:32]
Dan Smigrod: Three minutes and 20 seconds versus – Kay, do you still have your number there? Still there. Less than 17 seconds to do the Pro3 and I want to say that also includes transferring it to the iPad, is that –

[00:20:52]
Kay Owens: That's how long it took to spin. But once you complete the spin –

[00:20:57]
Dan Smigrod: Plus transfer time, but by the time you got to the next location to scan, it had already uploaded to the iPad, so you didn't even have to figure that time because you had to move the camera anyway.

[00:21:08]
Roger Owens: It had aligned.

[00:21:11]
Dan Smigrod: It was aligned. Even that's awesome. Why don't we take some time and talk about the Pro3 versus the BLK360.

Maybe the best way to understand this, is since you do have two BLK360s and you're using them sometimes with Matterport and sometimes without Matterport when you have been using Matterport + Leica BLK360 (first-generation): Does the Pro3 replace all that workflow going forward?

[00:21:50]
Roger Owens: We hope so, yes.

[00:21:53]
Dan Smigrod: Is there any issue in terms of clients, in terms of the Level Of Detail (LOD) that they need where the Pro3 will not be as good as the BLK360 or are the majority of the jobs that you do – the scan data from the Pro3, "good enough" for the clients that you serve either for as-built, construction documentation, large factories and outdoor car washes?

[00:22:23]
Kay Owens: I don't know that we can answer that just yet. Since we have not seen the E57 file from the Pro3. We may still have some clients that need that BLK360.

[00:22:37]
Dan Smigrod: I'm glad you brought that up. If a client – how to tease this out. Matterport offers two different types of data files, the Matterport MatterPak and the Matterport E57 file.

I want to say, let's not even talk about – Matterport MatterPak, for the moment, for any job that you've used the BLK360 in conjunction with Matterport, where you have not provided a MatterPak or an E57 file will, the Pro3 replace the BLK360?

[00:23:17]
Roger Owens: Yes.

[00:23:17]
Kay Owens: I think so.

[00:23:20]
Dan Smigrod: Night and day: you can use it outdoors and you can scan faster and have less issues with scanning.

[00:23:26]
Roger Owens: We actually do Chick-fil-A restaurants.

[00:23:32]
Roger Owens: We do a lot of them; have done a lot. We continue to do them and we have to do the roof and we have to do around the entire building, not to mention the entirety of the interior part. Now we can still use one camera or two cameras.

But two Pro3s: one on the roof from one downstairs because you have two different models. I am 1,000 percent sure that that's what we're going to be doing. We'll be doing a lot of them on Sunday this week.

[00:24:07]
Dan Smigrod: For any client that doesn't need a MatterPak or an E57 File, the likelihood of being able to immediately switch to a Pro3 from the BLK360 that you have been using. Such a long sentence. Let me try that again. The likelihood is that you will use a Pro3 instead of a BLK360 when doing Matterport when there's not a question about scan data; maybe the model's being used for marketing purposes.

[00:24:43]
Roger Owens: Yes, we will.

[00:24:47]
Dan Smigrod: Then the question will be, what level of detail (LOD) does your client need? I think what I'm hearing, Kay, is that RKO Photography has been providing clients with three options: 1) is a Matterport MatterPak; 2) is an E57 File from Matterport and I want to say, 3) is you are using BLK360 stand alone by itself, not with Matterport.

[00:25:15]
Kay Owens: Correct.

[00:25:16]
Dan Smigrod: Let's see if we divide and conquer those three. At the moment, it's too early really to ask you the question on how does the Matterport MatterPak compare: Pro3 versus BLK360 and for that matter versus Pro2?

[00:25:39]
Dan Smigrod: Well, I guess the answer is you don't know yet. But you expect that probably the Pro3 is sufficient for most of your client's needs.

[00:25:48]
Roger Owens: I can only go by what we're told, but personally, we have not experienced it.

[00:25:55]
Dan Smigrod: The same with the E57 file: you haven't downloaded one of those yet from your Pro3 use in order to be able to actually compare: How does that E57 file look on a Pro3 versus a BLK360?

[00:26:17]
Dan Smigrod: Looking at the specs for the three cameras the BLK360 has the best level of detail (LOD): 6mm at 10 meters; about 33 feet. The Pro3, 20mm; at 10 meters, again about 33 feet. The Pro2, 54mm

[00:26:39]
Roger Owens: Millimeters.

[00:26:41]
Dan Smigrod: Millimeters. Thank you for correcting me: 54mm, 6mm; 20mm; 54mm at 5 meters, which is about 16 feet.

[00:26:55]
Dan Smigrod: I guess I would say since Matterport obviously offers capture services, I have to think that the Matterport Capture Services Team was part of writing the requirements for the Matterport Pro3 Camera.

[00:27:16]
Dan Smigrod: In my mind, if you are Matterport Capture Services On-Demand, you need to tell the people on the other side of the fence within your company, "you got to make a Pro3 that covers 80 percent, 90 percent of the jobs that we're getting requests for so that we can move away from a BLK360." Your thoughts on my thoughts?

[00:27:39]
Roger Owens: I think you're probably right on top of it. I believe that a lot of it is done just to minimize the competition. I think that's done and then you have the price differential too. You definitely have to consider that – even though you do have a little bit better density as far as BLK360 scanning. I think that all of those other things brought into context makes it a great value.

[00:28:19]
Dan Smigrod: Yeah. It's an interesting question because I think if you are Matterport Capture Services On-Demand, you're probably thinking, "we have projects we can do, but the problem is we don't have enough Matterport Service Providers that can afford a $20,000 Leica BLK360.

We need something that the Level Of Detail (LOD) is 'good enough,' but at a price point that a significant number of Matterport Service Providers will buy so that the network of Matterport Pro3 Camera owners grows quickly in order for Matterport Capture Services On-Demand to be able to offer that on a national and global basis."

I guess, it's like we don't know what we don't know. I think I would be curious over time of what your clients – what RKO Photography clients – say about the level of detail of the Pro3 versus the BLK360 in that MatterPak and that E57 file.

But I'm just guessing that really it's going to be 'good enough.' If it is good enough, that means you're going to be able to scan faster; get done with projects sooner; have people on site. If you can go from three days to two days of scanning, does that mean you'll be able to be more competitive in terms of pricing because you don't have to price it out as a three-day project? It's a two-day project.

[00:30:04]
Roger Owens: Most of the projects we get are one price. Here's what you got to do. You need to do it in three days, if you can do it in two, you still make the same money.

[00:30:16]
Dan Smigrod: It may be that the tool that you have is way more efficient. I'm guessing it's also some side benefits: you don't get driven crazy by misalignment errors and you have to come back and move the camera back and redo the shot.

[00:30:32]
Roger Owens: Yeah. We've done up to 4 million SQ FT on projects. We do and, we're about to do quite a few of them that are going to be a million plus SQ FT in the next few months.

[00:30:47]
Dan Smigrod: Are these Matterport related? [Yes] Was originally Matterport + BLK360. But you're anticipating that these can be Matterport + Pro3 and you'll be just way way happier?

[00:31:00]
Roger Owens: Yes.

[00:31:01]
Dan Smigrod: Yeah. Kay, I believe that you were talking a little bit about that even in our last WGAN-TV show; Matterport Customer Journey: How RKO Photography Grew.

– Incidentally, our viewers can see that show by going to We Get Around Network Forum – www.WGANForum.com – type in the search box – just type in: RKO Photography You do a lot of the BLK360 scanning that does not involve Matterport and downloading the files. Do you think on the projects that you do that are not Matterport related that are Leica BLK360 – Do you think some of those projects will move over now to be able to be done by Matterport + Pro3?

Or no, there really are some reasons that you need to do the BLK360; only without Matterport?

[00:31:57]
Kay Owens: Until I see that E57 file, I really can't answer, but I will say I think most of them will be able to move over. We have had a couple of projects that required outdoor elevation and I think those will still have to be with the BLK360.

[00:32:16]
Dan Smigrod: Regarding the client's level of detail, the accuracy that they need because of the measurements that they may be pouring concrete or something and they may need to actually have a level of precision that perhaps the 20mm of the Pro3 versus the 6mm of the BLK360 that there's clearly going to be some need to continue to use the BLK360.

[00:32:43]
Roger Owens: The LOD right now is pretty good on the Pro3. Really.

[00:32:49]
Dan Smigrod: Yeah.

[00:32:50]
Kay Owens: It is.

[00:32:50]
Roger Owens: You zoom in. You can actually zoom in with your iPad and it's clearly just absolutely beautiful.

[00:32:58]
Dan Smigrod: I won't press you more on that because I think clearly either you and or your clients need to be able to look at the E57 file or look at the Matterport MatterPak and make some decisions about, "is the quality of the Pro3 good enough?"

Then, are they willing to have it delivered through Matterport buying the Add On of the E57 file or the Add On of the Matterport MatterPak. Before we move on, is there anything else to talk about in terms of the BLK360 versus the Pro3?

[00:33:41]
Dan Smigrod: Let me ask the question a little differently. "I've been thinking about buying a BLK360 camera to pair with Matterport."

[00:33:55]
Roger Owens: (Well, go ahead. Kay, you want to talk?)

[00:33:58]
Kay Owens: (No. Go ahead.)

[00:34:00]
Roger Owens: Obviously the newer BLK360 – the second-generation – does not work with the Matterport Capture app, so, you cannot really pair with Matterport, but you can use the BLK360 first generation.

To us, in our experience, the only benefit that we – and the reason that we'll continue to use BLK360 (1st generation), is because we actually can offload the scan files from the memory of the BLK360 where you can't with Matterport. Matterport controls all of this. You can archive them, but you can bring them back out, but you still are dependent on Matterport.

[00:34:43]
Dan Smigrod: Okay. I think there's some multiple conclusions there. Let me see if I can paraphrase them and if I'm wrong, stop me.

Prior to the Matterport Pro3 Camera introduction, if you were considering a Leica BLK360 to pair with Matterport, there's a good chance that the Pro3 sufficiently makes the BLK360 go away – or irrelevant – unless your client has a need for getting the data directly from the camera.

I want to say for most Matterport Service Providers, this is like, "I don't know what to do with scan data anyway," so I'm buying the Pro3 for other reasons.

But if your client actually says they need access to the scan data that doesn't go through Matterport for whatever reason, then BLK360 might be an option. But if you're going to buy a BLK360, thinking that you're going to do some jobs with Matterport and some jobs without Matterport, then it's important to note – Roger as you mentioned – only the Leica BLK360 first-generation works with Matterport.

[00:36:12]
Roger Owens: That is correct. And –

[00:36:15]
Dan Smigrod: (Sorry.)

[00:36:16]
Roger Owens: Realize that the data that goes into the first-generation BLK360, is not registered. You have to go in and actually manipulate the scans and fit them together.

You know what auto-register means. It just means it puts everything – connects all your dots and makes your model. BLK360 doesn't do that with the first generation camera. You have to physically use software and move – She's good at it, she really is. Create the model yourself with the data that's in the camera.

[00:36:51]
Dan Smigrod: Kay, I want to say you've been doing it for well over a year in terms of what Roger just described of this register the data.

[00:37:00]
Kay Owens: Yes. I have actually pulled out a few hairs over there.

[00:37:06]
Dan Smigrod: I can't tell. So that's good. ;-)

[00:37:08]
Kay Owens: You will.

[00:37:08]
Dan Smigrod: Maybe you pulled them out of Roger's hair. ;-)

[00:37:13]
Dan Smigrod: I think that's what happened. You pull out the hair, but it comes out of Roger's head.

[00:37:17]
Roger Owens: There are only a few left anyways.

[00:37:24]
Dan Smigrod: Maybe I'm going to go over the edge here. But to say, if for our viewers, if you were thinking about buying a Leica BLK360 to pair with Matterport, prior to the Matterport Pro3 Camera, then stop thinking that way because the Pro3 is probably 'good enough' for nearly everything that you could imagine doing, and it's one-third the price.

[00:37:50]
Kay Owens: Yes.

[00:37:51]
Roger Owens: Actually it's less than one-third.

[00:37:56]
Dan Smigrod: Only if you have a client that comes back and says, "no, I can't get my scan data through Matterport.

I need it to export it directly from the camera; directly from the BLK360." Know that you have to make this decision then, are you buying a BLK360, first-generation or second-generation?

If you buy the second-generation, it is not going to work with Matterport, and if you buy the first-generation, go compare the BLK360 first-generation with second-generation in terms of auto-registration and cost, and how long it takes to get How much does it cost for repairs? And what else are we talking about there?

[00:38:46]
Dan Smigrod: The challenges that the [Pro2] has in terms of image quality and the speed of capture?

[00:38:54]
Roger Owens: That's correct.

[00:38:57]
Kay Owens: Are you making the purchase for one client, or will you use it again? Because if it's for one client and the client says, "Oh, I just have this one job for you." Are you going to spend that money for one job? You have to think about that.

[00:39:12]
Dan Smigrod: Yes. That will be way easier. I mean, gosh, you know, a Pro3, seems like it's a way easier decision – Roger, you even used the words, "the value." I imagine the value was, "okay, we get to switch away from a Leica BLK360, perhaps for the majority of our jobs, and it's way easier to afford three Pro3s versus a Leica BLK360; particularly as your company grows, and you have a workflow where you like to always have the service provider in the field have double equipment in the event that something fails, that there's not, "oh, I'm sorry we can't finish the job today because our camera crapped out."

[00:39:59]
Roger Owens: Right.

[00:39:59]
Dan Smigrod: Yeah. I'm ready to move on to the Pro2. Is there anything else about the Pro3 and BLK360 that we didn't cover?

[00:40:08]
Roger Owens: The only thing is, if you're comparing it to the second-generation BLK360, it's more than three times the money. It's almost four times. It's $22,000 for a BLK360 second-generation.

[00:40:23]
Dan Smigrod: Plus tax.

[00:40:24]
Roger Owens: Plus tax, yeah.

[00:40:25]
Dan Smigrod: Plus shipping.

[00:40:26]
Roger Owens: I have tax on both of them.

[00:40:28]
Dan Smigrod: Yeah, that is true. But it's a bigger number, and it terms absolute number of terms, being a bigger number on the BLK360, plus if you need the proprietary software that Leica offers.

[00:40:42]
Roger Owens: Right.

[00:40:42]
Kay Owens: Yes.

[00:40:43]
Dan Smigrod: Or other solutions. Let's move to the Matterport Pro3 Camera versus the Matterport Pro2 Camera. What are your initial thoughts about the comparison of the two cameras?

[00:40:56]
Kay Owens: Did you see that 17 second scan? ;-)

[00:41:01]
Roger Owens: That speed.

[00:41:05]
Roger Owens: The first car wash I did,

[00:41:10]
Roger Owens: you just can do it almost half the time. It's just that fast.

[00:41:16]
Dan Smigrod: The speed of a Pro3 versus a Pro2?

[00:41:20]
Roger Owens: Yes.

[00:41:20]
Dan Smigrod: Because Kay, when you hold up the phone there with the timer with less than 17 seconds that's versus the Leica BLK360, which was taking three-plus minutes on Medium Density scanning. Do you have any sense with the Pro2; the difference in time?

[00:41:42]
Kay Owens: I think the last time I clocked it was about 26 seconds. Some people have said 20, but I don't think I've ever had a 20-second scan with the Pro2.

[00:41:51]
Dan Smigrod: Okay.

[00:41:52]
Kay Owens: Twenty-six second is a lot faster than the original Matterport [Pro1] Camera.

[00:42:05]
Dan Smigrod: We're talking about it's faster, not double the speed, but I think maybe these next two questions might reveal some 'aha moments.'

[00:42:18]
Dan Smigrod: Pro3 versus Pro2.

[00:42:23]
Roger Owens: I scanned a Zaxby's restaurant this morning and I did not have a misalignment. This is a new one – and it's the biggest Zaxby's that I've seen, and it took me one hour, and that includes the 360s outside because they didn't want to be scanned outside, they just wanted some 360s. You do less scans too.

[00:42:49]
Kay Owens: The transfer time is less.

[00:42:51]
Roger Owens: That's the biggest thing to me is the transfer time to the iPad.

[00:42:56]
Dan Smigrod: Did you sense a faster transfer time with the Pro3 versus the Pro2?

[00:43:02]
Roger Owens: Absolutely. It's unbelievable. I couldn't believe it.

[00:43:10]
Roger Owens: We did the first car wash, and it was quick. It was outside. We were standing away from it, sometimes having to hide.

[00:43:21]
Kay Owens: With the BLK360, the Wi-Fi signal is so weak that you have to have the iPad on a hook on the tripod. You cannot walk away with the iPad. With the Pro3, we hid 10, 12 feet away, sometimes or more and it worked like a charm.

[00:43:44]
Dan Smigrod: I think I heard four things that were super-compelling: 1) the speed of the capture, the rotation, the spin; 2) was eliminated misalignment errors.

[00:44:00]
Roger Owens: Yes.

[00:44:01]
Dan Smigrod: And other errors that might have occurred. 3) you're doing outdoors with the Pro3, that's just not possible with the Pro2 except for 360 Views and for anyone paying attention to this conversation.

The 360 scanning data is a completely different use case than the 360 View. You're doing outdoor scan data, spatial data and gee, I think there was one other one that was there.

[00:44:34]
Kay Owens: 4) Transfer rate.

[00:44:35]
Roger Owens: Pardon. The transfer rate.

[00:44:36]
Dan Smigrod: Transfer rate. Thank you.

[00:44:41]
Dan Smigrod: I think what I'm hearing is no comparison in terms of Pro3 versus Pro2 on those particular items. Did Zaxby's restaurant have a high ceiling?

[00:44:54]
Roger Owens: It was probably 18 feet in the dining area.

[00:44:59]
Dan Smigrod: If you use the Pro2 inside Zaxby's space with that ceiling, would you have gotten good scan data?

[00:45:06]
Roger Owens: I don't know if it had been good, but you would have had some, but I doubt it would be as good as the Pro3.

[00:45:13]
Dan Smigrod: How would the dollhouse compare? Do you think of a Pro2 versus a Pro3 of doing an 18-foot ceiling?

[00:45:25]
Roger Owens: I think it's going to be better. I don't think there's going to be any comparison with much of anything.

The only question that I had asked, and I was just interested as you know that the Pro2 and the Pro3 both produce images that are put into a file that you can actually off-load them. I was told that the difference in the pictures is just small.

It's not even that great on the pictures, but on the Pro3 scans themselves, I've looked at it, I've looked at it real close. I have zoomed in. You don't lose any detail when you zoom in or zoom out.

[00:46:07]
Dan Smigrod: You have eight Matterport Pro2 Cameras. Do you think over time you're going to phase those out and in favor of the Pro3s?

[00:46:14]
Roger Owens: No.

[00:46:15]
Dan Smigrod: Because?

[00:46:17]
Roger Owens: Because we will have clients that don't demand a Pro3 that want to use them for historic value, possibly, and they work with our Matterport Classic Enterprise Hosting Plan.

[00:46:32]
Kay Owens: Hosting Plan.

[00:46:33]
Roger Owens: Hosting Plan as opposed to having to use a new Pro plan for the Pro3s; as you probably already know. That it's going to get expensive. Unless they're willing to help pay the bill, then it will be Pro2, and it will be put on the Matterport Classic Enterprise Hosting Plan.

[00:46:56]
Dan Smigrod: I think for any viewers that are interested in Matterport Classic Pricing, that means you were on a Matterport Cloud plan prior to 2019, you can read more about this topic in the We Get Around Network Forum.

Just go to: www.WGANForum.com and in the subject line type: Matterport Classic But I think that probably answers the question is, if you have any clients where the Pro2 is good enough, it's going to let you have a different price to your client because of the Matterport Cloud pricing that was in effect before 2019.

[00:47:41]
Roger Owens: That's correct, yes.

[00:47:44]
Dan Smigrod: I would imagine you have three or four different kinds of Cloud scenarios. 1) You're going to Matterport where you host it with your Matterport classic pricing; 2) You have Matterport tours that you host with new pricing.

[00:48:02]
Roger Owens: Right.

[00:48:04]
Dan Smigrod: 3) You have clients that you're transferring spaces to.

[00:48:08]
Roger Owens: That's correct.

[00:48:09]
Dan Smigrod: You may be transferring either to a classic plan, is that the case in some clients?

[00:48:16]
Roger Owens: Yes.

[00:48:18]
Dan Smigrod: If you have a client that's using Matterport classic pricing, then you need to process those Matterport tours on that plan in order to transfer the models to them. 4) Then you may have other clients that you are doing Matterport for that you're transferring models to that you need to be in your new pricing plan.

[00:48:40]
Roger Owens: We are 'Matterport Collaborators' for about 14 or 15 different companies where we actually upload the Matterport models to them, and if they don't have one of the new Matterport pro plans ("New Pricing", then they can't get it.

All of those people have to upgrade – if they haven't already done so – to a Pro plan.

[00:49:04]
Dan Smigrod: Some of the dynamics here is the Matterport Pro3 Camera does not work with Matterport Classic Pricing Hosting Plan.

That meant that you needed to have yet another type of Matterport Cloud Hosting Plan account in order to deal with either new clients or old clients or clients that are on Matterport Classic Pricing and that helps determine which cameras that you'll be using. Which is a long way of saying you're going to hold onto your Matterport Pro2 3D Cameras.

[00:49:40]
Dan Smigrod: Let me ask the question differently. If Matterport overnight said, "hey, you can use the Matterport Pro3 Cameras with Matterport Classic Hosting Pricing," [Kay: Sold] would you get rid of your Pro2s?

[00:49:52]
Roger Owens: No.

[00:49:53]
Dan Smigrod: Because?

[00:49:56]
Roger Owens: Only because that's always a good backup.

[00:50:00]
Kay Owens: It's a good scanner.

[00:50:01]
Roger Owens: It's a good scanner. It's not as good, but if you're doing marketing, let's say, if we ever decided to get back into residential real estate, that's plenty good for residential real estate.

[00:50:16]
Dan Smigrod: Ah! Here's some words of wisdom here – help me out here – because many Matterport Service Providers are focused on residential real estate, photography, Matterport tours, etc, and are probably trying to think, well, do I buy the Matterport Pro3 Camera or do I buy the Matterport Pro2 Camera? The answer is?

[00:50:44]
Roger Owens: If they were buying it today, I would buy a Matterport Pro3 Camera.

[00:50:52]
Roger Owens: Doesn't mean that I'm going to go out and buy a new Winchester gun today. That doesn't mean I'm going to get rid of my BB gun. You never know when you just want to go out and shoot the BB gun.

[00:51:05]
Dan Smigrod: The Matterport Pro2 Camera is good enough for you to keep as a backup camera. But we're suggesting to somebody they're going to make a decision between [$6,000] today for a Matterport Pro3 Camera, about [$3,395] for a Matterport Pro2 Camera.

Check the We Get Around Network Forum for when Matterport offers Cameras for sale because we post those coupon codes in the Forum (www.WGANForum.com). But at the moment, Matterport Pro2 is [$3,395].

That's a difference of about [$2,605]. If you're running a business, what is your advice to someone who is just on the edge of their seat trying to decide between a Matterport Pro3 Camera and a Matterport Pro 2 Camera?

[00:51:53]
Roger Owens: In this business, you don't buy for today. You buy for tomorrow. We ordered seven Pro3s to start with. I wish it had been more because I'm so confident in the future. We're just on the cusp of what's going to be happening with this.

[00:52:13]
Roger Owens: We spend a lot of money on equipment each year because we stay on the edge and we try to look forward and we've been blessed to say the least with our choices and our decisions. It's worked out well. First time we bought a Matterport Pro1 Camera, we bought three. She almost killed me. But we bought three of them.

Then we got two BLK360s. It just grew and then we ended up with eight Pro2s because we had people and we made sure everybody had one. Well, they can still have one and they know they have a Pro3. They can use either one, whenever it's needed. Let me put it that way.

[00:52:58]
Dan Smigrod: Do you think that you'll get either more business or new business because of the seven Matterport Pro3 Cameras?

[00:53:07]
Roger Owens: Well, as you know, we are on the Matterport Special Operations Team which means we generally do properties half a million square feet and up. They're going to be requiring the Pro3s, that's one thing we have to make.

We have some of the other people that we deal with that you deal with, that you actually promote their companies and help them out, and they're good companies by the way, I will tell you that I love them to death.

But still, it's going to grow and it's going to require, if you're going to buy, buy for tomorrow, don't just buy for today, because tomorrow you're going to kick yourself. That $3,500 could be applied to a better camera, you just don't know. I think if everybody works at it, they can do very well with the Pro3.

[00:54:07]
Dan Smigrod: As soon as you buy a Matterport Pro2 Camera, you realize, "oh gosh, I can't scan outdoors.

I can do these 360 Views, but that's not the same thing as a real walk-around tour. It's taking me longer because of the Pro2 versus the Pro3 because it takes longer for it to rotate versus a Pro3. The transfer time is taking longer."

If time is money and you buy a Pro3 versus a Pro2, it sounds like you may either be able to get more jobs done in a day or be able to spend more time with family rather than be out scanning.

[00:54:46]
Roger Owens: Yes. I'll ask you this question. You've seen Matterport scans that were done outside along with the interior. Is it not breathtaking when they first come up and you can see around the property? And that's the thing. You're going to be able now to produce something that's just going to be awesome, inspiring, just takes my breath away when I say.

[00:55:08]
Dan Smigrod: Yeah, I think my take on it, Roger, is for anyone that's been focused on residential real estate, you made the leap away from residential real estate as quickly as you could and don't regret looking back. I would say with interest rates today, 30-year mortgage, [7.5] percent.

What we're going to see either – and inventory tight. There's always going to be – even though you're going to make the pitch to a residential real estate agent, "hey, this is going to help you win more and bigger premium listings" you are still fighting for limited inventory against yet many more Matterport Service Providers. I just think, "hey, if you do the investment in a Matterport Pro3 Camera, you'll be able to do outdoor scans, which will be important for as-builts.

It'll be important for outdoor elevations. You'll be able to do large spaces, faster, you'll be able to have a level of detail for the scan data that's probably good enough versus the BLK360. The price may be [$2,605] more than a Matterport Pro2 Camera.

I think what you and Kay have been talking about today is the Pro3 is really making the BLK360, to some extent irrelevant. Which is a $19,000 to 20,000 solution, and you can get that for [$6,000].

By the way, if you're interested in Matterport Capture Services On-Demand, I'm guessing they're going at some point, likely to phase out people that are doing Pro2s and you'll have to have a Pro3 to do the job. Maybe that's not for marketing purposes, but maybe when they're doing as-builts or construction documentation or things that involve outdoors, you're not going to have a choice. You really will need a Matterport Pro3 Camera.

[00:57:12]
Kay Owens: I think so.

[00:57:13]
Roger Owens: I think so. Yes.

[00:57:16]
Dan Smigrod: I think the advice for Matterport Service Provider is: probably there will be more opportunities to make more money because of the tool. I think you said it, you buy not for today, you buy for the future and the future is coming sooner than we all expected.

[00:57:37]
Roger Owens: Very quickly.

[00:57:39]
Dan Smigrod: Are there any parting words or anything that we haven't talked about today? You think like I really wanted to say this –

[00:57:48]
Roger Owens: I think that for people that really want to get into the business. I think the next 15 months are going to be huge for the commercial side.

Only because people, as they cut their budgets are going to still have to do business and do business out of their offices. They're going to be hiring people and in the areas that need work done without sending people and spending the extra money. I think it's going to be even bigger than it is now and it's huge.

[00:58:23]
Dan Smigrod: Kay, any additional thoughts?

[00:58:26]
Kay Owens: What he said.

[00:58:29]
Dan Smigrod: Do you have any regrets? I know it sounded like – I think what I heard was Roger saying, Kay was going to kill me when we bought those initial Matterport Pro2 Cameras. What happened when he said, I want to buy seven Matterport Pro3 Cameras? What was your reaction then?

[00:58:49]
Kay Owens: Well, he first said five Pro3s,

[00:58:55]
Kay Owens: and then the next day or something he told me, seven Pro3s.

[00:59:05]
Kay Owens: What are you going to do? I have to tell you he has a good head for business. I may want to choke him sometimes, but I defer to him.

[00:59:15]
Roger Owens: It's worked out pretty well between the two of us. We compliment each other and let me tell you, there's nobody better at what she does. Seriously, she is really good with the scanning and with the BLK360 and registering and all that.

[00:59:32]
Kay Owens: I haven't killed him yet.

[00:59:34]
Dan Smigrod: That's a good thing. In fact, we did talk about – in our first WGAN-TV show together; Matterport Customer Journey: How RKO Photography Grew.

Part of what I asked you about was husband and wife being in the business together and about the success that you've experienced and why. I would really encourage our viewers to check out that show.

Go to: We Get Around Network Forum: www.WGANForum.com in the search bar, put: RKO Photography If you want to check out Kay and Rogers Company, RKO Photography: RKO.Photography

[01:00:18]
Dan Smigrod: Roger, Kay, thanks for being on the show again.

[01:00:21]
Kay Owens: Thanks Dan.

[01:00:21]
Roger Owens: Absolutely. Thank you, Dan. Always a pleasure.

[01:00:25]
Dan Smigrod: Thank you, Roger. We've been visiting with RKO Photography President Roger Owens and Vice President Kay Owens. I'm Dan Smigrod, Founder of the We Get Around Network Forum. You've been watching WGAN-TV Live at 5.