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GeoCVTranscriptWGAN 360 Camera Loaner ProgramWGANTV Live at 5

Transcript: WGAN-TV GeoCV FAQs with GeoCV Co-Founder & CEO Anton Yakubenko9777

WGAN Forum
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WGAN-TV Podcast
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DanSmigrod private msg quote post Address this user
Video: WGAN-TV Live at 5: GeoCV FAQs with GeoCV Co-Founder and CEO Anton Yakubenko | Special Thanks to Sunningdale, Ascot, Berkshire, UK-based (Responsive Reality) @leonvanzweel and Los Angeles-based ( @Home3D Kevin Dole for asking questions (and for Kevin giving us a sneak peak at his GeoCV scanning experience (Kevin is the first WGAN Member to borrow a GeoCV Kit from the WGAN 360º Camera Loaner Program.)

Hi All,

The following is the transcript from WGAN-TV Live at 5 show with GeoCV Co-Founder and CEO Anton Yakubenko Thursday, February 28th 2019. (I erroneously say in the show, February 28 2018.)

I thought it might be nice to revisit this interview.

WGAN Forum Related Topics

Borrow a GeoCV 3D-360º Enabled Smartphone Camera Kit
✓ WGAN Forum discussions tagged: GeoCV




Transcript: WGAN-TV GeoCV FAQs with GeoCV Co-Founder and CEO Anton Yakubenko

Dan Smigrod: 00:00:00 Hi y'all, I'm Dan Smigrod, found of the We Get Around Network forum. Today is Thursday, February 28th 2019 and you're watching WGAN-TV Live at 5. Our guest today is Anton Yakubenko. Anton, good to see you.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:00:17 Good to see you, Dan.

Dan Smigrod: 00:00:19 Thank you, good to see you as always. Anton is the co-founder and CEO of GeoCV and today's show is all about GeoCV frequently asked questions. Even before we get into some of the questions, Anton, how much is giving this a top line... What is GeoCV? Somebody who's just turning in for the first time?

Anton Yakubenko: 00:00:42 Yeah, sure. So basically, GeoCV is a solution to capture real spaces in 3D and 360. So we believe that our world is three-dimensional and it makes total sense to capture and share it in 3D. And to democratize this further, we have developed a unique solution which utilizes a smartphone or a 3D camera for capturing, and produces high quality immersive virtual tour which has a realistic 3D scan of the space to showcase the layout walkthrough experience, using high resolution 360 images with most transitions in between them.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:01:18 Plus, you can extract other deliverables out of the 3D Tour; such as floor plan, which is extracted with 98% accurate dimensions and overlaid on top of the 3D model. As well as still photos, 360 images, 3D model for further editing and so on. And we try to be like a more open platform; so we allow our customers to own the copyrights for the data, to do white labeling, to do self-hosting, to do password protection, offline viewing and many other things.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:01:49 The value of what we do spans across, I say, everybody participating in their lifecycle of [inaudible 00:01:56]; starting from home buyers and sellers, the real estate agents and brokerages, the real estate photographers and service providers, and everybody in this industry.

Dan Smigrod: 00:02:09 You covered a lot of ground in there, so I want to see if we can break it up a little bit. I think maybe my first question in terms of frequently asked questions - I'm going to ask you about maybe some of the questions you get - but is... There are other 3D tour solutions. How is GeoCV different?

Anton Yakubenko: 00:02:28 Yeah, that's a great question Dan. So the question is how GeoCV is different from other 3D and 360 virtual tour solutions. There are multiple things here - one is our approach to hardware. So, we are hardware-agnostic and we're currently the only company in the world, I believe, that utilizes a smartphone with 3D camera for capturing. Now it makes the solution, I say, relatively affordable and easy to upgrade. In the future you can imagine that you can use a phone out of your pocket to do capturing. So far, we provide you the whole setup, which includes a particular smartphone, a particular 3D camera. Eventually we'll be able to support other phones which already have the 3D cameras; and in general we are not bounded to a particular hardware. So being hardware-agnostic and using a smartphone is one of our differentiators.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:03:23 The second one is our open approach to the whole platform. So we don't try to do everything ourselves, we don't try to close what we develop. Instead, we allow a lot of control and flexibility on our customers and partners. So we allow white-labeling, self-hosting, data ownership, data editing, offline viewing, password protection and a number of other features. So being this open approach, open architecture platform is our second differentiator.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:03:56 The third one is our business model. So, in contrast to others we don't make any money on hardware and we don't monetize the data. So our revenue stream comes only from software as a service or process and hosting and other features. So we're not interested in selling just more cameras, and we're not interested in selling to customers of our customers. Our goal is to have as many spaces captured in 3D as possible.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:04:29 The fourth one is our unique feature set. So it starts with small things like a mini-map or a silver background of our 3D models, a floor plan overlay, and goes up to the really unique features such as the integration of your 3D scanner and your 360 images, virtual staging done in 3D and 360 and many others. It will compare ourselves to more classic virtual tours. Then we have a lot of additional advantages, such as that it's not just a 360 walkthrough experience where you jump from spot to spot, but it's a seamless 3D plus 360 experience, where you see a 3D scan from a standard layout. Where you can smoothly walk through the space in a very natural fashion; where you can extract a floor plan with 98% accurate dimensions, as well as print resolution still photos.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:05:32 Finally, the solution is pretty easy to be trained to use. There is still some [inaudible 00:05:39] remains if you want to perfect your skill. But in general it's easy to start, you do not require extremely long training or very special long trained skills to do it. So to summarize; it's our hardware-agnostic approach, it's our open architecture approach, it's our business model, it's our unique features, it's our 3D plus 360 experience, and its overall ease of use.

Dan Smigrod: 00:06:14 Terrific. You went through a long list and I'm gonna actually gonna bring you back to the list, but you did talk a little bit about the walk around experience and how that's different. Perhaps you could just actually give us a demo of a GeoCV 3D Tour so we can [inaudible 00:06:29].

Anton Yakubenko: 00:06:28 Yeah, I would be happy to. So I will share my screen now, let me know if you see it.

Dan Smigrod: 00:06:38 Maybe you could make that fullscreen for us?

Anton Yakubenko: 00:06:43 Is it rendered okay?

Dan Smigrod: 00:06:44 Yeah, yeah. Looks great.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:06:45 Okay, so this is just a sample 3D tour. It has three main modes; this is the 3D view where you can view the whole space from any point. You can zoom in, zoom out, and basically get the sense of the layout and the general feeling of the space. Then we can extract a floor plan with all the room labels and all the dimensions, and the dimensions are usually 98% accurate which is good enough for real estate marketing purposes. This floor plan is beautifully overlaid on top of the 3D model, making it very clean, I would say. Plus you connect with it as regular files - for example, for MLS or for print materials.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:07:35 And finally you can jump inside the space and you go into the 360 walkthrough experience. We provide high resolution HDR quality panoramas; the current resolution is over 80 megapixels, or 12k. When you move around in the space, you see that the movements are very smooth - at least on my screen, I'm not sure about the screen share - and this is done because of the underlying 3D geometry layer that we capture.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:08:10 In addition to this, you see this mini screen in the bottom left which is optional. This is a pretty unique view of small 3D models, so you can both understand where you are now at the same time or some special context around it. We can integrate some information about the listing, the agent, the brokerage, as well as the service provider. So this is a basic experience part. Maybe down the road we can go through some additional features, such as pins with rich media annotations ability to remove GeoCV branding and add service provider or customer branding; highlights, drone integration, virtual staging and many others.

Dan Smigrod: 00:08:59 Well, again you've covered a lot. Maybe if you could take us off screen share... I did want to point out while you were doing the screen share, it looked good but it wasn't as good. And I think that's our fault with all the technology that goes on to do WGAN-TV Live at 5, there's a little bit of latency in it. But I know that when I look at a GeoCV 3D Tour on my computer, that it's silky smooth. So I... In fact, if our viewers would like to see some more GeoCV Tours, they could go to...

Anton Yakubenko: 00:09:36 Yeah, if you'd like to see more GeoCV Tours, you can go to GeoCV website, in particular onto our gallery page. Basically, either gallery menu on our website, or

Dan Smigrod: 00:09:48 Okay, or You'll see a lot of different examples. Anton, I'm going to ask you some questions about the questions that you get that are frequently asked. But we do have some We Get Around Network, WGAN viewers in our virtual studio audience. I'm going to see if I can bring them both in to see what kind of questions they may have, and I'll ask them to introduce themselves as well. Just take me a second.

Dan Smigrod: 00:10:20 So... And I see I have one without a camera, so I'm going to actually bump him back to take him off air. It'll just take me a second. Okay, let's do that actually. Hey Leon, good to see you. How about introducing yourself?

Leon van Zweel: 00:10:43 Hi, I'm Leon van Zweel. I'm based in the UK, just outside London in Westcott. I have lots of interests, but I'm particularly interested in 3D. I've played with a number of things-

Dan Smigrod: 00:11:05 Hey Leon, let me stop you just for a second. I think you have us playing and it's causing a little bit of a loop, maybe you could just close out of your forum browser, if you don't mind?

Leon van Zweel: 00:11:19 If I close out what?

Dan Smigrod: 00:11:21 Your forum browser, we're hearing the feedback of the show.

Leon van Zweel: 00:11:25 Okay, let me just...

Dan Smigrod: 00:11:33 We're hearing something, maybe that's your wife [inaudible 00:11:36] feedback that I'm listening to.

Leon van Zweel: 00:11:39 Is that better?

Dan Smigrod: 00:11:40 Yeah, much better. I apologize for interrupting you but I really did want to hear you. So I think you're a regular poster in the We Get Around Network forum; you always have great questions, great insight. What kind of questions did you have for Anton about GeoCV?

Leon van Zweel: 00:11:56 I sent some questions earlier because I wasn't sure if I might get on the show. They're more technical questions regarding the specification. I actually only... I've been rather busy lately so I only had a chance to dig a bit into GeoCV earlier today.

Dan Smigrod: 00:12:23 I think some of the questions you were asking about in the forum were about how to shoot. So maybe we just ask Anton a general question there about... Anton, what is the capturing or shooting experience like? How close does the camera need to be? And whatever else you would describe in terms of the shooting experience.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:12:43 Yeah, sure. So, Leon, good evening. Nice to see you. So the shooting process works as follows; so probably I just will show you the camera, I'm not sure how very visible it will be on the video; otherwise I can use a screen share or something like this. So this is how our camera setup looks like. What we have here is the following; it's a regular Samsung Galaxy S8 phone, it's like off-the-shelf device. This is an occipital structure sensor depth camera, it basically captures the geometry and that's how we create the 3D model - it's also off-the-shelf device. And the only proprietary piece of hardware is this panoramic head; what it does, it automatically rotates the phone and the 3D camera 360 degrees on two axis.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:13:43 So, we currently deliver you everything as a whole setup, including the phone and including the 3D camera. We currently cannot support your own phones, though it's coming later this year. We'll provide you everything in this case, it's a small lightweight carry case and everything required, including all the batteries, cables and so on, are already there. So the only thing you need on top of it is a regular tripod. Our solution is very lightweight, so it's only three pounds or one and a half kilograms. So you can use a pretty regular, not very heavy duty tripod. I can show you how it actually works, so I will turn on the camera, I'll probably rotate it for you. The phone is turned on, there is mobile app; we open the mobile app, it automatically checks for updates. So if we have any updates, you'll be automatically updated, you don't need to pay anything extra for updates. You create a new project, you name the project and then you basically start scanning.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:15:02 The first time it warm ups for a few extra seconds but in general it takes you 39 seconds for a spin and after that you already have [inaudible 00:15:12] tripod to the next spot. The processing is done right on the smartphone that is used for capturing, so there is no extra time or efforts to transfer the data from the smartphone to an iPad computer or whatever. The device does twenty-four different angles to capture almost the whole sphere, except the nadir and zenith angles. And it captures multiple exposures so it can then stitch HDR. In parallel, it also captures literally millions of 3D measurements, which we then use to stitch the 3D model.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:15:53 I know it's not that visible due to limitations on my laptop camera, but basically here you see a preview of the scan that you have created view from the top; and it allows you to understand what errors have been captured, so you never miss like a room or something like this. This real-time feedback is pretty important. Then you move the camera to the next spot. You can maybe go up to 8-10 feet or 25 to 3 meters between the spots, that's the recommended distance. But in some cases you can go a little bit further than that, in some tighter spaces you actually need to make smaller [inaudible 00:16:37] to have a good walkthrough experience. Also, the range of the 3D camera that we're using is limited to around 15 feet, or 5 meters. That's why if you have a larger space, you probably need to make more spots to cover it. In general, it's a couple of dozens of spots per thousand square feet, or your hundred square meters. So it takes you around 25 to 45 minutes per thousand square feet to do the scanning.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:17:05 It mainly depends on the layout of the space; so if it's a spacious layout, it will be faster, if it was a lot of small rooms it could be on the longer side of it. It also depends on whether it's empty or furnished. So if it's an empty space, it's faster, if it's a furnished space it has some occlusion so you need to make more spots. And it also depends on your personal efficiency. So the spin itself takes 39 seconds, and basically after that you can immediately move it over to the next spot.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:17:38 And then it depends on your speed on site, how fast that you move it from spot to spot. Rather than moving the camera from spot to spot, the only other thing that you need to do during capturing is mark up mirrors and windows. So if you see a mirror in the scene, you need to mark it up just with a simple two dots and that's also a very fast and easy process. And it allows our algorithms not to be confused by the reflections in the mirror. Similar with windows because windows have sometimes very noisy geometry because of reflections or something like this. It allows the geometry to be very straight and planar.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:18:26 After you are done... What I didn't mention but was very important there 0 alignments between spots is done fully automatically. So you don't need any manual alignment or something like this. The only thing you currently need to help our algorithms to work very fast on the smartphone, is to select - before I capture the new panorama - to select the previous panorama which will be closer to the newer one. You don't do this that often, because you usually move consequently through the space; but if you went in one direction and then you change the direction in the other side, you just tap on one of the nearest panoramas, so basically that's all.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:19:09 When you are done, you press upload button when you are connected to Wi-Fi. The data is uploaded to the Cloud and then it's automatically processed there. Currently it's around, maybe, a couple of gigabytes of data per whole space and we are working on the ways how we can decrease it further. So if you have a decent Wi-Fi at home and office, it will take you not that much time to upload it there.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:19:39 It is then processed in the Cloud full automatically for several hours. Apparently its speed of process varies from 10 to 20 panoramas per hour. This you can approximately estimate how long would it take to process. And then after several hours, you get an email notification, so you can start editing your 3D Tour if you want to. In addition to this, we provide floor plans extracted from the 3D scan. That is done by our partner and it takes up to extra 24 hours after the 3D Tour has been finished. The floor plan is then added into the 3D tour automatically and it also becomes available to be downloaded as a regular file.

Dan Smigrod: 00:20:26 Terrific. Can you hit the button on your smartphone there, on your Galaxy? [crosstalk 00:20:33] So we can see it rotate.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:20:35 Yeah, of course.

Dan Smigrod: 00:20:37 I think I heard you say that it's 45 seconds to...

Anton Yakubenko: 00:20:42 It's actually 39.

Dan Smigrod: 00:20:44 39. [crosstalk 00:20:45]

Anton Yakubenko: 00:20:45 Then it takes around 6 seconds to do the computation right on the phone. During this time you can already move the tripod. But in total, if you want to calculate the whole time for capturing and processing for each panorama, it's 45 seconds. So if I click on this button, it starts to rotate. If you are on a space where you need extra time to hide away from the camera, there is an option to add five extra seconds if you want to go to another room. But in reality, since it already gives you a few seconds in the beginning, you have enough time to hide away from the camera, or you can just walk around.

Dan Smigrod: 00:21:30 Leon, did you have a follow-up question to Anton on that? Or should I have you come back in the studio a little later in the program?

Leon van Zweel: 00:21:37 Okay, Anton. One of the questions, and I've experienced this with mobile phones, is battery life. Especially if you have to scan more than one space in a day or particularly large spaces. How do you extend the battery life on both your data and on your mobile phone? Or do you have to fully recharge them in between?

Anton Yakubenko: 00:22:09 Yeah, great question. So, there are three... Basically, each of these pieces of the hardware requires power; it's the phone, the 3D camera and the panoramic head. The panoramic head is powered by two batteries and we provide these batteries as part of package if there are no limitations in shipping, as well as the charger. These are like regular 18650 batteries, that's how they're called. So you can buy them on Amazon, they're inexpensive; so you can just buy them, recharge them at home or in the office beforehand. They have multiple... Like I say, several pairs of batteries with you. I say that if you have maybe two or four extra batteries, that will help you to go through the whole day.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:23:02 Then speaking about the phone, it uses its internal battery and that's perhaps their main limitation. So it allows you to scan for around three to four hours if you dim the screen a little bit, so not to use too much of the phone power. And it results in about, I'd say, 120 to 180 panoramas before you need to recharge the phone.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:23:26 If we speak about the depth camera, there are two options. So, by default its powered by the phone and that results in more drain on the phone battery. So it will be close to like three hours, a little bit less. But we, in addition, provide a separate cable which you can plug in into the panoramic head, and which you can plug in into the depth camera. And by this case it will be charged by the panoramic head. It will add you about one hour of extra scanning, so it's closer to four hours of continuous scanning.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:24:09 If even this time is not enough, you can then recharge the phone; either onside, using a power outlet or using a mobile power bank. In reality, how we see photographers actually doing this for example the following; if they have multiple spaces to capture during the day, they usually commute between spaces, and during this time they use a mobile power bank to recharge the phone. Or if you have captured just two large, or like really large spaces, maybe when you go to the lunch you can put the phone on charge. So usually it's not a big problem.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:24:47 The only problem where it could be more important if you scan something huge, like more than 10000 square feet and you want to do it continuously. Then at some point you need to pause, recharge the phone and continuous scan. But maybe it... We're all humans, you're in this time, you can recharge your energy as well and go for lunch, for example.

Dan Smigrod: 00:25:11 Cool, thank you Anton. Hey Kevin, let's see if we can hear you. Maybe if you take it off of mute there? Let's see if we can hear you okay. We've got you on mute, so let me see if I can take you off mute. Okay.

Kevin Dole: 00:25:25 Can you hear me now?

Dan Smigrod: 00:25:26 Pardon?

Kevin Dole: 00:25:27 Can you hear me?

Dan Smigrod: 00:25:28 It's a little bit low, is there any way to amp up the volume?

Kevin Dole: 00:25:33 Probably. The question is whether I'm smart enough to do it.

Dan Smigrod: 00:25:37 Maybe just lean in to wherever the microphone is.

Kevin Dole: 00:25:40 Yeah, it's just... Hang on a second.

Dan Smigrod: 00:25:42 Okay, so while Kevin's doing that [crosstalk 00:25:43]

Kevin Dole: 00:25:44 I'll open system preferences and get at the audio.

Dan Smigrod: 00:25:47 Okay. So while you're working on that, let me introduce Kevin Dole. He's the founder of, in the greater Los Angeles area. And We Get Around NetWork Forum actually has a program called the WGAN 360 camera loaner program. And one of the cameras that we have in the loaner program is the GeoCV kit, courtesy of GeoCV, and Kevin has actually been the first member that we've sent... That we've loaned out the GeoCV camera to, and has been busy shooting a multi-million dollar property. Kevin, we haven't really had a chance to talk about it yet and I know we're gonna have to have you back on the show talking about your experience. But why don't you give us a little taste of what it's been like for you to use the GeoCV kit?

Kevin Dole: 00:26:38 Yeah, can you hear me?

Anton Yakubenko: 00:26:40 Yeah. Hi Kevin, nice to see you.

Kevin Dole: 00:26:42 Great. Hi Anton, thanks so much. It's been fun working with your camera system. I've been taking... I went out to a 5000 square foot pretty luxury home here in Los Angeles that I was hired to do a photography and production video on and so forth, and have been applying many different systems. Matterport, which I've done for about three years, which is excellent training. If you've done Matterport, then doing GeoCV is no... It's very, very simple. It thinks very much the same way; it rotates, the scan time per scan is about the same. You know, 90% of the system is very logical and quick and intuitive to learn if you've already done Matterport.

Kevin Dole: 00:27:39 It has... I've been particularly intrigued with the fact that as some of us on the forum were exposed to it through the Inman real estate magazine months ago, when GeoCV first showed the indoor/outdoor capabilities of taking drone shots using drone deploy or other programs; and then combining those so you have a 3D model of the entire outside of a property as well as the GeoCV inside.

Kevin Dole: 00:28:15 So I'm still going through the learning curve. I have to compliment... Anton and his staff have been so supportive teaching me how to do it. And the first ones not completely done yet, but hopefully within days... I did go back out, Anton, and re-shot at the location following the advice, so I'm trying to learn. What I can say is shooting the exterior part to create the outdoor 3D model is not as easy and intuitive as shooting either GeoCV indoors or Matterport indoors. It's a bigger learning curve, but it's exciting to do anyway because for properties and large lots and so forth, it's really a stunning thing that you've accomplished.

Kevin Dole: 00:29:07 I have found, basically... If you've done Matterport, GeoCV is easy to learn. There are a couple of differences about it. Basically trimming, marking windows, mirrors and so forth works basically the same way as Matterport. You're working on the little Samsung screen, so you have a smaller piece of real estate to mark windows on; but just like with Matterport, you can expand it, make it larger and position it.

Kevin Dole: 00:29:41 One of the things that I really like about the trim and marking system that you've developed is that as you place markers on mirrors and windows and exterior trim, the trimming that is accomplished in the model shows up live instantly. Whereas in Matterport, you position these things and you kind of hope they're in the right place to actually accomplish the trim. But Anton shows you right then and there, you can see as you stretch a trim line, you can see stuff disappear that's beyond the wall outside a window or something, which is a very nice feature.

Kevin Dole:l 00:30:20 I mean it's hard to come up with a lot of differences because it's been easy to learn. As Dan knows, I'm still struggling to get my head around Cupix which I'm trying to do, and I thought I was gonna be able to do a test shot today, but I'm still not quite there.

Dan Smigrod: 00:30:44 Let me give some top line to help for context here, is that Kevin has been shooting with five different solutions for the same multi-million dollar home. GeoCV is one of those solutions. We're going to have Kevin back on the show to compare and contrast the different solutions for shooting, processing, hosting, viewing, sharing; so that's actually gonna be a totally different show. Plus, Kevin is going to be kind enough to publish on the We Get Around Network forum his experience of shooting with each platform, as well as sharing examples from each platform.

Dan Smigrod: 00:31:30 I think I also want to just say, at the end of the show we'll talk about if you're interested in borrowing GeoCV kit. I'll talk about how you do that with the We Get Around Network Forum. Kevin, how about some questions for Anton? What questions you got for him?

Kevin Dole: 00:31:46 Oh boy... [crosstalk 00:31:47]

Anton Yakubenko: 00:31:47 Kevin, I'll give you a few minutes to just think about questions while I can chime in and maybe comment a little bit on what Kevin said before that.

Dan Smigrod: 00:31:56 Yeah.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:31:56 Thank you very much for compliments on how marking up mirrors and windows work, thank you for that. Basically, I believe yesterday we have released a new version which goes a couple of steps even further. It includes automatic snapping of marking up to walls; so now you don't need to tap it precisely, it will be automatically snapped to the surface. So the size of the screen won't be a problem anymore.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:32:29 Second minor thing is that the windows now create a kind of marking out from both sides. So sometimes you can see previously that if you marked a window, it trims only one part but there is still some noise on the opposite part. Now it's not the issue. So we're constantly progressing and I'd say delivering great [inaudible 00:32:54] is one of the things where we never compromise. By the way, don't you mind if I show the 3D Tour that you have just recently captured, or you would like to preserve it private?

Kevin Dole: 00:33:07 Absolutely!

Anton Yakubenko: 00:33:08 Okay. So Dan, if you don't mind, I will show- [crosstalk 00:33:11]

Dan Smigrod: 00:33:11 Anton, before you do share - in fact, while you're setting up - I did want to point out, I think Kevin, you were talking about there were some challenges while you were shooting and I want to distinguish between the capture of the interior with the GeoCV kit - which I think you found super easy - in contrast maybe to creating the aerial 3D, which is kind of a super advanced feature that requires some deep learning in terms of the skill set required to do that.

Dan Smigrod: 00:33:50 And once you do master that, and I know you will master that, then you have just something that's totally awesome because it's a 3D model, not only inside the house and outside the house, but above the house and around the house. And I know that's something you want to master, but that's something that's probably going to differentiate in the greater Los Angeles area. So I know you're really super charged about that. Anton, you wanna share a screen on that?

Anton Yakubenko: 00:34:21 Yes, give me a moment.

Kevin Dole: 00:34:24 Yes, it is very exciting, this indoor/outdoor thing.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:34:31 Okay, so can you see my screen?

Kevin Dole: 00:34:34 Yes.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:34:35 Yeah, so I built... Kevin you should recognize your mansion you have shot just recently. So this is like the automatic result that you could have been capturing. Like for example, in the outdoor you're in some shade or something like this, so you can see that the outdoor looks really beautiful. And in general, maybe here, I'd like to mention about the limitations and work arounds of capturing outdoor scenes.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:35:08 So basically, since our depth camera works in infrared range when you have direct bright sunlight, it interferes with this camera, and it just doesn't see the depth. But if you are capturing, for example, early in the morning, later in the afternoon, or during some cloudy weather or in the shade, we can capture great 3D as well. If you want to capture during other light and conditions, such as indirect by sunlight, you can capture just a 360 image which will be added as a standalone kind of viewpoint on the sidebar, and you will be able to walk separately to this 360 image.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:35:56 We extract - here's just an example - we extract floor plan with all the dimensions. And if required, the square footage is calculated as well as the accuracy, which is usually 98% but we can't guarantee any particular accuracy in any given case. It's usually good enough for floor plans for real estate marketing purposes. The drawn example that Kevin was referring to, I would be happy to show it as well. So this is a huge 23000 square foot mansion in upstate New York and we have captured both the interior as a regular 3D Tour, as well as the exterior.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:36:50 So, this is how the exterior looks like and you can see a photorealistic 3D model, which you can simulate to a 3D scan view from any viewpoint. And it gives you the sense of, not only of the building itself, but also of the nearby land. For example, in this case it's a private peninsula, so it's a definite selling point of the space. And it's just impossible to visualize it otherwise if you have just an interior 3D Tour or separate 360 images somewhere. The land, you need to actually look at it from the bird's eye view.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:37:32 In addition to this, you can optionally capture aerial 360 panoramas. The current long software allows you to do this in a pretty automatic fashion. And then we align these 360 panoramas to the 3D scan and we provide the same kind of experience where you can smoothly move between them in the air, and look around the neighborhood, and on the building itself.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:38:02 So as Kevin mentioned, this requires some learning curve in the way how you shoot it. Mainly because, in comparison to our interior scan solution, it doesn't have real-time feedback. So you just capture a number of images, you send it to us, we process it using photogrammetry approach and then we extract all this three-dimensional data. But as soon as you capture a couple of them, I believe that it will be easier to master this approach. So basically you just need to fly around the house in multiple circles at different altitudes; and there are some drone automation software like drone deploy, which could have made a lot of this for you.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:38:48 In maybe some more complex cases, for example, where there is a lot of trees around the house, in this case you need some manual flight mode. So I'm really looking forward to see the new footage from Kevin and see how it could be integrated into his 3D Tour.

Kevin Dole: 00:39:11 And you will see.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:39:16 Perfect.

Kevin Dole: 00:39:17 Thank you for your patience with my learning.

Leon van Zweel: 00:39:21 And on a question for you with regards to the exterior 3D model, does the operator or say, for example, Kevin; does he only supply you the photographs from the drone, and then you do all the processing? Or does one have to use an external app to do the processing of the 3D model?

Anton Yakubenko: 00:39:47 That's a good question. So, this is kind of like our premium, experimental feature. So for now we're very hands-on in the process, we only ask you to provide us images and we do all the processing on our site by ourselves. But if we see enough demand and enough success of this future employed by service providers, we see ways how it could be automated. So there are multiple solutions to create 3D out of aerial images - in particular, drone deploy does it by itself and does a pretty good job - and there are other third-party solutions. So as soon as the volume and the demand is there, we see ways how to automate it to be more hands-off from this and provide this capability to the customers by themselves.

Dan Smigrod: 00:40:46 Kevin, you had a follow-up?

Kevin Dole: 00:40:49 Yes. One of the things - and time will tell soon, as I get these next set of drone photos loaded for Anton's team to work with. But one of the things that they have impressed upon me is when you're shooting the drone footage, a drone deploy pattern - which is a way of looking down from top over a piece of property - the drone deploy program creates a grid where the drone automatically flies back and forth with overlapping photos. That gives an overhead, overall view of the property. But then you need to shoot manually, flying around structures such as the house that you're featuring, to get it from all the side angles and so forth. And one of the things that was striking, as he was trying to educate me why my first set did not work, is that the manual flights need to, in some cases, essentially match what was done with the drone deploy; and in my case I shot it about 200 feet across this property.

Kevin Dole: 00:41:57 And as you move through a house using GeoCV or for that matter, Matterport, we all know from experience that you need to be within... Depending upon the walls or surroundings, within 6-8, sometimes even as much as 10 feet of a previous scan so that the geometry can be picked up. Now in this case, there's no infrared in the drone shots but there is photogrammetry at work. And the photogrammetry essentially requires the same sort of overlap between, for example, a manual flight around a property... A building, and the drone deploy, which is in this case 200 feet across.

Kevin Dole: 00:42:41 So what they instructed me - and we'll see if this works - was to go back, take the drone up to the altitude that it was flying during the drone deploy grid photography, and manually shoot pictures from there. And then coming down to the house and around the house, so that these manual pictures can essentially - in the photogrammetry world instead of infrared - can pick up and recognize the same images as was in the drone deploy set, so that they'll connect.

Kevin Dole: 00:43:19 So it's essentially kind of like the infrared system that the photogrammetry need to connect all these separate shoots, and then sequentially bring down to lower levels and circle around the project and so forth. It's like thinking of infrared in a three-dimensional space, you know - north, south, east, west and up/down in terms of overlapping. As the infrared we know, on a lateral sense, per floor must be done in GeoCV and Matterport.

Dan Smigrod: 00:43:55 Well, we look forward to you mastering that because I know [crosstalk 00:43:59] you'll share with me a video you put together for the house. That multi-million dollar house is actually located on a cliff, and it's very dramatic. So I can just imagine this 3D model. Not only this multi-million dollar house but where it's located is extraordinarily interesting.

Dan Smigrod: 00:44:20 On the shooting part, did you have... Maybe I could just ask you the question about shooting. Somebody is maybe thinking about starting a service provider business, they're looking at different solutions; you've now had a chance to work with four and a half solutions for creating either 3D or 360. On the scale of things, how hard was it for you to learn how to use GeoCV?

Kevin Dole: 00:44:53 Extremely easy, because I've done Matterport. I mean if you were starting from scratch, you've never done Matterport, then there's a learning curve of course. But it is really quite simple, and it's a snap for anybody who's done even one Matterport shoot before; because the thought process, the planning and so forth, simple.

Kevin Dole: 00:45:15 I had to train myself, Anton of course, to remember to tap... When I'm about to do a scan, to tap the next nearest one that I've previously done. Because, you know, you work your way down a hall and into your bedroom, and then you come back out to the hallway. And if you're going to go into another bedroom, you need to tap one of the images. So occasionally, you know, it would say “Doesn't align,” and I'd say “Oh yeah, of course.” What doesn't align is my brain. [crosstalk 00:45:42] But it's very simple.

Dan Smigrod: 00:45:44 So for any existing service provider, let's say Matterport, the process is similar in terms of scanning?

Kevin Dole: 00:45:58 I'd say it's a snap for anybody who's done Matterport before. And you know, as GeoCV and Matterport are the two systems that use infrared and build a beautiful dollhouse and so forth, they are both to use shorthand Mercedes systems. Whereas other things like Zillow 3D and other ones that don't have a dollhouse are more Ford Chevy, if you will. There are just less features because you don't have the 3D dollhouse view, which is very informative. Anton, of course, has this little 3D mini-map thing down in the corner, which is a really wonderful plus too, on top of that. And of course the outdoor thing is, as far as I'm concerned, kind of blows everything out of the water. That goes from Mercedes to Rolls Royce.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:47:00 Thank you.

Dan Smigrod: 00:47:01 So Anton, how do you feel about having the Rolls Royce of 3D solutions for real estate?

Anton Yakubenko: 00:47:07 I like this comparison. At the same time I think that our flexibility allows some of our customers to build Rolls Royce; for example, by investing time and effort. At the same time it allows others to have, you know, like Toyota or something like this. Which is already good enough for many, many applications and customers without costing you a million bucks as a Rolls Royce costs.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:47:34 I would also say to Kevin that when you capture a few more spaces with GeoCV, it will become a good habit that doesn't take you any extra time to make the right tap on that previous panoramas. And as for drone capturing, that is kind of like a new premium experimental feature; and I think that step by step together with service providers, we can come up with a more detailed guide rather than we have now to have this process more streamlined. In particular, drone deploy does have some automation for more complex flights; you know, to fly around the circle and look at the building. So if we do it step by step, we can get there.

Kevin Dole: 00:48:22 I do have one question which is a general question that applies, in this case, to GeoCV; but it really applies to all walkthrough processes. For this industry... If I can collectively say for the industry of creating 3D walkthroughs - particularly for residential real estate is what I do most of the time - the biggest challenge to me is getting the existence of this remarkable technology into the awareness of the general public. In that sense, of course, I have to compliment Matterport for at least getting a one button way of taking a build and putting it on and Of course Zillow hates Realtor, hates Matterport, so Zillow's gonna do their own thing with this little simple 3D home process.

Kevin Dole: 00:49:20 But the real key here to wide adoption, to getting us to the point where our... A real estate listing cannot be put up. The general public will insist that 3D walkthroughs are a part of real estate, just like still photos are today. And that's a question awareness and what motivates that awareness, which promotes it, is getting these things onto the websites that the public will discover them through. To me that's the biggest challenge and I'm wondering whether you, Anton, have been at least struggling with how to do that, how to get them in front of people.

Kevin Dole: 00:50:19 I've been angry for two years now that Realtor, although they put up Matterport, it's a little tiny button on the main window that says 3D view, doesn't seem to say Matterport. And it's almost an afterthought, it's so under emphasized. [crosstalk 00:50:39] Zillow is creating a slightly bigger thing that says 3D home in the cities they've activated, but this is the challenge - how do we get those out there so people can see them? Because when they see them, they're gonna want them.

Dan Smigrod: 00:50:53 I'm gonna ask the question a little bit differently. Anton, 2014 you launched your business, 2017 you started offering your GeoCV as this service to real estate agents in the New York market. January 2019, you've just started making GeoCV available across the United States, just started taking orders. When are you launching a hundred dollar advertising campaign to get consumers to insist that real estate agents include GeoCV tours with their listings?

Anton Yakubenko: 00:51:32 In a couple of years. But I think that it's actually... Kevin, it's a great question, and I totally agree that distribution and exposure of 3D Tours is something that could be promoted even further. But I think that here it's not only on the solution provider site, such as GeoCV, but it's a lot on the service provider's side and how do they educate their clientele. And we'll be happy to share how we did it in New York.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:52:09 So basically, we started as a service provider, as Dan mentioned. And one of the reasons for that was to be in the shoes of the service provided by ourselves, to understand our future customers, as well as to understand clients. And I think that if we join forces in educating the market, this would be very beneficial to more exposure. One of the ways how we did it is like a couple of things. One is definitely packaging; so it's not 3D Tour coming sometimes one out of ten, or a hundred on top of professional photos. But it's a value-added package that includes at the very minimum a 3D Tour, a floor plan extracted from a 3D Tour and professional photos.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:53:00 For the low-end markets, where the quality of photos might not matter that might, it could be the same package but the photos... They are not using a DSLR camera but extracted from their virtual tour. So I think packaging is very important and the promotion, in my opinion, should be that this is the absolute minimum new standard. So you should use it on each and every listing, and not only on your multi-million listing once in a while. That's one thing.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:53:35 Second one that some people might be still on the fence, but there are easier ways to get them on board and floor plans is one of that. So I say more people would probably want a floor plan rather than they would like the 3D Tour now. So you can provide them the floor plan, which is extracted from the 3D Tour, and then you an upsell the model 3D Tour. Because I think that there's a difference in this dynamic, because if you already show the customer their exact space in 3D, it's a significantly better selling point than showing them somebody else's listing. So seeing is believing; even when you see your space in 3D, that becomes more appealing. And in terms of efficiency, it is a comparable effort. And resources required to do a floor plan using traditional methods, such as laser measure and drafting, or expecting it from their virtual tour.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:54:45 And I would actually like to show a couple examples, thinking back on what we've discussed. So Dan, if you don't mind, I will share-

Dan Smigrod: 00:54:56 While you're getting set up there Anton, I'm going to mention I could imagine that GeoCV managing director, Jonathan Klein is watching the show; and I think we need to get Anton back on the show to focus on how to build a successful service provider business, because I think that's a tremendous request by many members in the community. Literally as you said, Anton, in order to understand your eventual customers, as service providers. You started a service provider business and created actually a very successful service provider business in New York, in the greater New York area.

Dan Smigrod: 00:55:42 And I think a lot of that learning and knowledge... There's just a tremendous need for helping understand how to replicate some of that success for service providers. That may even be part of your marketing strategy of when you join GeoCV, you get the benefit of all that knowledge. And just, I think one other thing I wanted to point out was you've actually exited the service provider business because GeoCV is taking the position of “We don't want to compete with photographers, we want to help support photographers; and we're not going to sell them a camera and then turn around and compete with them by being a service provider.” Have I stated that correctly?

Anton Yakubenko: 00:56:22 Yes, absolutely. So maybe to start from this, yes, we have learnt a lot in being a service provider by ourself. We still believe that some of the customers won't want our do-it-yourself solution; because, for example, many agents don't see themselves actually shooting, no matter how easy to use the solution. And in this case, when they will be reaching out to us and saying, “I want it to be a tour, but I don't want your camera,” we'll be happy to flow this business to our service providers.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:56:59 Right now we are already making some partnerships with service providers to flow our existing New York business. But since we have started [inaudible 00:57:09] nationally, step by step eventually we'll be able to flow some orders to our service providers as well. So maybe speaking to their distribution piece, our three tools would be easily- [crosstalk 00:57:25]

Dan Smigrod: 00:57:25 Anton, if you're going to talk about this but now show, either show us or jump back into that, or take us off screen sharing so we can just focus on you and on this [inaudible 00:57:33]

Anton Yakubenko: 00:57:33 Alright, but I'd like to share screen for this topic. So, our 3D Tours - you can see my screen now, right?

Dan Smigrod: 00:57:43 Yes.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:57:44 Okay. So, our 3D tools could be easily embedded on any website; it's just a simple one-line iframe HTML code which you can just copy-paste into your website. Now the other page, you can see some selected examples; how our customers integrated it into either their websites or single property webpages, or [inaudible 00:58:09] to Zillow and other listing portals. One of the examples is, for example, from campus. So here is the campus website and the recent page. It has a carousel of photos and the 3D Tour is embedded right below the description of the listing in a very native way. So you don't leave potential homebuyers out of the website, they can direct directly here.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:58:42 And what I wanted to show - speaking about the floor plans, and the floor plans as kind of a starting point for your marketing - is that it's actually in some cases more accurate and true to life than the floor plans done in a manual fashion. So this is a floor plan done, I believe, by a professional drafter - no offense to them, it's a complex space - but you can see that these walls are parallel. In reality, they're actually not parallel and for us it's very easy to extract this as minor angles and complex shapes, because we extracted from the captured reality content versus drawing it manually. So having the floor plan with accurate schematic [inaudible 00:59:33] like shapes and accurate dimensions could be a good starting selling point.

Anton Yakubenko: 00:59:39 Another thing that I'd like to mention about the promotion of the services by service providers is that it depends on the type of your business; whether it's a more volume business with smaller margins, or business with less volume but higher margins- [crosstalk 00:59:59]

Dan Smigrod: 00:59:59 Excuse me, Anton. Take us off screen share and let me hear that again if you don't mind.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:00:05 Sure, so-

Dan Smigrod: 01:00:07 I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I think it would be so important, I really want to be able to actually see you fullscreen to talk about it.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:00:13 Of course. Thank you, Dan.

Dan Smigrod: 01:00:16 And in fact, if I may, I'm gonna ask Leon and Kevin - if you don't mind - I'm going to put you back into the virtual studio, and then maybe rejoin us. If you just send me a note if you want to come back in towards the end of the show, we'll do that. Let me see if I can do that, I think I'm going to do that with Kevin as well. And then we'll have a little bit larger screen area. Okay, great. Thanks Kevin. Good, okay. Excuse me, Anton, you're starting to talk about...

Anton Yakubenko: 01:00:46 Yeah, so I think that service providers might have different business models. Some of them might be based on volume, some might be based on price, to be higher priced. And I think that GeoCV allows you to do both; so currently it is for our early adopters, we offer this unlimited plan which includes unlimited 3D Tours, unlimited hosting, unlimited floor plans. As well as all our unique features such as white-labeling, self hosting, copyright ownership, data editing, offline viewing, password protection. So if you have volume, you can use this unlimited plan to just create 3D Tour for basically each and every listing that you should.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:01:32 On the other hand, if you'd like to show that it's something different, you can charge more for GeoCV because it has some features that you can't get otherwise, and drones is just one of the examples. And there are many others including their high quality ability to brand their experience and so on. And maybe the final thing about the distribution is that originally when we started to promote services to agents, we were maybe too pushy saying that you need to have 3D Tour for each list and publish it very transparently.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:02:10 But eventually we have understood that there are different types of listings and entrants, and there is no one-size-fits-all solution. So in some cases if it's a beautiful space like something Kevin has shot, definitely put it everywhere; put it on Zillow, put it on, on your website, on a single property webpage. Do social media marketing; so for example, allow you to extract Facebook 360 panoramas and a 3D model for Facebook. Distribute it everywhere.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:02:44 On the other hand, if the property is on the fence, and you believe that if you publish it transparently people would find some imperfections and won't actually come and see it in person - and that's what realtors want - you might preserve it and use it differently. For example, we can send this as a follow up after people have already visited in person. Or you can share it among your brokerage network because, in this case, people don't need to be guided to the space in person; they can estimate the space remotely. So I think that there is some possible innovation in how you promote these services.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:03:35 And maybe if you don't mind, I'd like to show one thing; speaking about - like Kevin's - that we are taught how easily you can change the basic experience to something that fits you better. So I will share the screen once again, and I will close this one. One moment. Yeah, so basically this is Kevin's 3D Tour, and I would like just to show you how you can edit the space very easily. So what I have done, I have added for example [inaudible 01:04:15]. And I have done, to be honest, in real time while we were speaking, so it took me just a couple of minutes. This information blog, which includes the information about the listing and the contact of the agent - this is not the real agent, it's a random name and random picture - but I think that this kind of stuff would be very appealing for the end customers.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:04:40 The second thing that I have done, I have created a white-labeled version of 3D Tour. And I would actually go to another tab and just show how this looks like - one moment.

Dan Smigrod: 01:05:00 Well I saw as you were prepping that, and we were seeing the logo, yeah.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:05:13 Yeah, you see this logo here? And as you see, you don't see GeoCV logo here. And then you can see this logo here and it says “Now captured by Home3D,” and it says, “Captured by,” here as well. So [crosstalk 01:05:25]

Dan Smigrod: 01:05:25 In the bottom left of the info panel and in the bottom right of the 3D tour. What we're seeing is a lot of branding opportunities, either for the photographer or the agent. It might be a combination of...

Anton Yakubenko: 01:05:40 Yes, and in this case it's one way how you can probably make more money and differentiate yourself from competition, and not to participate in this race to the bottom. Because you can say that maybe in your area you are the only one providing this. And even if there are GeoCV service providers, since this experience is branded by yourself - and as agents will deep dive into “How I can get something like this,” more likely that they will be sticking with you, versus going to a competitor who does similar stuff but with just a cheaper price. [crosstalk 01:06:21]

Dan Smigrod: 01:06:22 Excuse me Anton, unless you're going to show us something else, can you take us off the screen share?

Anton Yakubenko: 01:06:26 Yeah, sure. Just maybe a small thing - we also care a lot about the user experience for the end users, such as homebuyer or a potential tenant. So, when the tool loads first couple of times, there are interactive help that allows new users to finalize themselves with our solution.

Dan Smigrod: 01:06:53 Okay, terrific. So since you announced GeoCV being available in the United States - that announcement was really just in January, I want to say... Was it the last day of January...

Anton Yakubenko: 01:07:09 Something like that.

Dan Smigrod: 01:07:11 Yeah, something like... Might have been February 1 actually, even. I know it was... In any event, it's only been about a month. What are some of the frequently asked questions that you're getting?

Anton Yakubenko: 01:07:26 I believe we have actually count pretty many of them during our current conversation; and actually earlier next week we're going to publish the official FAQ. So mainly the questions could be found there as well. So probably I will just currently go through some questions that we are asked quite frequently, but which have not been answered yet.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:07:56 One of these questions is, “What are the deliverables can I get from my GeoCV 3D Tour?” And the answer is the answer is the following. So in addition to the 3D Tour, you get a floor plan which is not only integrated into the virtual tour experience, but is also delivered as a file; like white label JPEG and PDF file. And the cool thing about it that you can also get a textured floor plan as well. By textured floor plan, I mean like an image of the floor plan overlaid on top of the 3D model similar to what you see in our 3D viewer.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:08:35 The second thing is that during march we will release a feature to extract still photos out of 360 images. They could be extracted in print resolution in high dynamic range, so you can use them to provide valued-added package and you can expect unlimited still photos. The next one is 3D models. So you can download the 3D scan in obj format and then use it in third-party 3D solution. To clarify, this is like a high polygonal textured mesh; so it's not like a CAD or a V model, but you can import this obj file into CAD or V software and use it as a starting point. If you want to create a CAD model, there are multiple third party services that do this scan to CAD conversion.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:09:34 And finally it's 360 panoramas. So you can download full resolution, HDR accurate [inaudible 01:09:42] panoramas and you can then edit them. So for example you can Photoshop out cam reflections, private photos, faces, expensive paintings or other stuff. And then we'll provide you an ability to upload this content back, so we can visualize it in our 3D viewer. There are more extra deliverables coming down the road but at least in short-term this is something that you can get out of a 3D Tour in addition to a 3D Tour.

Dan Smigrod: 01:10:18 Virtual staging?

Anton Yakubenko: 01:10:20 Yeah, it's a great question. So it's another premium experimental feature and I'd like to show you how it looks like. I'd like to share the screen once again. One moment.

Dan Smigrod: 01:10:41 So in terms of the frequently asked questions Anton mentioned there, it's the week of March 3rd 2019; if you go to, you'll be able to see a litany of frequently asked questions. I had a chance to preview a little bit of it but it was questions about viewing, sharing, capturing, processing, deliverables, editing, customization and purchasing. So all those topics there's about ten different questions that people have frequently... That are asked... I think Anton and his team have been busy putting together those FAQs. Again the week of March 3rd 2019, go to to see these frequent FAQs. Forgive me Anton, you were about to show us virtual staging meets GeoCV.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:11:36 Yeah, no worries. So basically everybody knows that it's much harder to sell or to rent an empty space versus a staged space. At the same time, physical staging is an expensive, time-consuming and inconvenient way. So if possible, of course virtual or physical staging is great but it's not possible for each and every listing. There is virtual staging for photos which are already like a great tool; but we made one step further and actually staged an empty space in 3D and 360.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:12:15 So this is the space captured as is, and this is the space with virtual staging. So you see how that furniture popped up? And we can easily switch between the two. Now we can go inside the space and you can see very photorealistic staging; and you can see that it stays very consistent when you move through the space. Once again, you can easily switch between the original space and virtually staged space. This is also branded on the floor plan as well.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:13:01 So how is this done? We partner with a few pretty well known virtual staging companies, so they do the actual staging. What we do, we provide the original content to them and we also upload the edited content from them so we can visualize this both original and
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Anton Yakubenko: 01:14:10 So it could become a relatively expensive thing to do it in 3D, so the less expensive yet good enough option is just to stage it only in 360, where you will get pretty much very similar experience to this. The only different will be that the 3D model will remain empty, but you will still see the staged space. And given the quality of these images, you can then extract still renders out of these 360 images and use them as still photos as well.

Dan Smigrod: 01:14:48 That's awesome. So I think what I heard was two things; one was in terms of estimated price is about $100, you mentioned $100 a spot. I'm gonna assume a spot is a scan, a 360. So if you have ten 360s, it's gonna be ten times a hundred, or a $1000 is a ballpark price.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:15:14 Yes.

Dan Smigrod: 01:15:15 So part of the way, if maybe a smaller unit would be just to stage one of the 360s.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:15:23 Yes.

Dan Smigrod: 01:15:24 That might be planning to shoot a space and anticipation of that is to have one 360 boom right in the middle of the space, so that you can stand there and turn around and look all around.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:15:38 Yeah. So if we go further into frequently asked questions - we have already gone through this but it is important to reiterate that at the moment we provide you the whole setup, which includes the smartphone. So for now you can't yet use your own smartphone; but this is, I'd say, one of the future steps closer to the end of this year or something like this. No exact timeline. At the same time, this solution is still more flexible to be upgraded in the future.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:16:14 For example, currently we're using occipital structure sensor for capture and depth; and this company Occipital has recently released a new sensor which has better resolution, and which also works a little bit different way. So it does not solely depend on infrared light and it would capture outdoor as well. So as soon as we support this sensor, we'll be able to capture outdoor in a more flexible and robust fashion. And in this case probably the only depth camera will be needed to be replaced, which will be like 500 bucks instead of replacing your whole camera. And that's a great feature of [inaudible 01:16:59] hardware-agnostic and flexible in the hardware approach.

Dan Smigrod: 01:17:06 As we've looked through the WGAN-TV show today, can't help thinking that a lot of it looks like Matterport. So how is GeoCV different from Matterport?

Anton Yakubenko: 01:17:24 Yeah, so GeoCV is definitely different from Matterport in several ways. One is our hardware-agnostic approach, which is currently based on a smartphone versus a proprietary camera. And this is an inexpensive 360 camera, which cannot yet deliver a high quality experience. The second one is our open approach to architecture and content, versus being a more closed ecosystem; such as we allow white-labeling, self hosting, copyright ownership, data editing, offline viewing, password protection.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:17:58 Third one is our business model, which is based on software as a service, versus also selling... Like making on cameras, making money on data. And in particular we have very unique unlimited pricing plans, which are great for somebody who has big volumes. And finally there is a difference in feature sets; we have some unique things such as mini-map, draw integration, 3D virtual staging and branding by the agent, branding by the service provider, and many others.

Dan Smigrod: 01:18:40 Cool. You know you went through that list pretty fast but I made some notes on it, because it really is an astonishing list Anton. Because I think anyone who's a Matterport service provider who's been a member of the We Get Around Network Forum community for a number of years now, has probably been screaming through the rooftops the list that you just identified. Which is self-hosting, being able to own the copyright of the work, not have any issues about whose work it is or derivatives. You're not in the data business of monetizing someone's data. So copyright free, clear for photographer, downloaded, self-hosted. Be able to edit the content, is that... I'm not sure we talked on... The ability is coming to be able to download HDR photos. Are we getting to the point where we'll be able to download a 360 and then clean it up, upload it back to the platform?

Anton Yakubenko: 01:19:45 Yes, that's already possible. So you can download the 360 images, eight of them, and upload it back. Now it involves some human interaction with our support team, it's not fully automated through our tour editor, but that's common. So we already have customers who more like on creative side and they do it for each and every of their 3D Tours.

Dan Smigrod: 01:20:12 So you're shooting a five million dollar property, and the agent just doesn't want the camera to be in the bathroom mirror, there wasn't any other way to shoot the space. It's now possible to download the images, Photoshop out the camera in the mirror and upload it?

Anton Yakubenko: 01:20:31 Yes, definitely. And by default, for example, when we were doing service orders in New York, we removed cam reflections out of the mirrors as a default option. And this was very much appreciated because it makes the experience more immersive, it doesn't distract you with the view of the camera itself.

Dan Smigrod: 01:20:53 Okay. So just to kind of tick off that list and we'll move on; unlimited processing, unlimited hosting, camera's included, white-label, self-hosting, customers own the copyright, download the 3D model, download the 360s, edit the content, offline viewing, password protection for 3D Tours. So sounds like you've been [crosstalk 01:21:20] listing [inaudible 01:21:22] We Get Around Network Forum in terms of some pain points, of either an existing Matterport service provider or a professional photographer thinking about buying Matterport, maybe having some angst and concern. And it sounds like you've addressed a lot of those. I think you're actually making Matterport irrelevant if those things matter to a photographer and you're looking at the two different platforms.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:21:49 Yeah, so basically your list is very comprehensive, almost absolutely right, The only thing is that we currently offer the camera for purchase versus rent; so you buy camera but then you get an option to select this unlimited plan, which in addition to what you have just mentioned such as unlimited processing and hosting, it also includes unlimited floor plans. Which is actually great and maybe the under appreciated addition that the floor plan comes by default with each property. It doesn't depend on how large the property is, how many floors, and so on. And I think that it will be an important piece for promotion that is packaged together, versus both floor plans and 3D tools being an upsell to photography.

Dan Smigrod: 01:22:44 Yeah. In fact while I'm speaking, if you don't mind, if you could call up your floor plan again because I really want an example of the floor plan view. [crosstalk 01:22:54] If you could call it up. To me there are so many things that are special about GeoCV and if you could just go over - and it includes floor plans - Anton, if you could just call up a floor plan so we take a look at one.

Dan Smigrod: 01:23:16 This is really quite remarkable; if I understood correctly, within 24 hours, this floor plan automatically shows up in your model. So if we were to put this side-by-side with Matterport, we would see something that looks the same except the 2D schematic floor plan overlaid. And I think what you've done here has added so much value to the 3D Tour that in the 3D Tour view I can actually see what the rooms are. And the schematic just kind of defines the space better.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:23:53 Yeah, absolutely. And maybe to clarify about that turnaround time, it's within 24 hours that the 3D Tour has been processed. So usually it's in the same 24 hours range as you upload, but if it's a large space it will take some extra hours in the beginning to process itself. What I'd like also to show that we actually have the floor plan view as an option in our mini-map as well.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:24:21 So while you are walking through the space, you can still see the floor plan. It's a better way of splitting the screen, so when you're in the room you don't need to go back and forth into different modes. And you can already see, for example, that you are coming to a bedroom and this is the size of the bedroom, and here's the bathroom. So I think this combination of visual and layout view is really the way people want to explore the space. And even the limitation, if you will be picky you will see that actually this floor plan view is not just flat, it's three-dimensional; so it gives you this sense that you're moving through a real space versus just have a dot on a flat image.

Dan Smigrod: 01:25:19 Terrific. I think that's kind of a one-two punch that's really amazing. We could practically, you know, probably spend 15 minutes just on that topic alone, it's that important is helping people visualize the space by helping label the rooms and actually make the floor plan look nice and clean, and professional within that dollhouse view. So I've gotta applaud you on that. Leon, I know we've got you in the virtual studio. If you just make me a note if you want to come back in and I'll take another look to see if you've got some questions. Anton, before we wrap up, was there any other frequently asked question that you're being asked and I haven't asked you to talk about?

Anton Yakubenko: 01:26:10 Yeah, maybe I will go briefly through a few of them. One is like, “What types of spaces could be captured using GeoCV solution?” So I say our sweet spot is any space that is maybe below 10-20000 square feet. If the space becomes too much, it just becomes too time consuming to capture. That's, like I say, the size of the space of limitation; so our solution is not for a stadium or industrial warehouse. It's more like for residential, commercial, retail spaces, hospitality and so on.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:26:49 The second thing is that it's not for huge wide open spaces. So for example, if you want to shoot 50000 square feet [inaudible 01:27:01] office space, maybe we're not the best solution. For this there are laser scanners to capture those large spaces. And finally, we assume that the spaces stay static; so if people constantly walk around, that won't produce the best results. So you just... We're not the solution yet for each and every space, but we'll cover the absolute majority of spaces, from pretty small ones to pretty large ones.

Dan Smigrod: 01:27:38 And who is the GeoCV idea customer?

Anton Yakubenko: 01:27:45 Since we have launched less than a month ago, we're currently focused on the ones that have pretty large volumes to justify our limited plan. We're also looking through early adopters who won't be just our customers but would like to share with us their feedback, so we can continue improving our product; at the same time they will be tolerant to some imperfections of the product that is being curated as we go. [inaudible 01:28:20] a few years building what you currently see.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:28:26 Service providers who are really focusing or want to focus on 3D Tours, that's definitely a sweet spot for us. Next month - I mean in March - we'll be launching a new pricing plan, which will expand our potential clients to include those who, for example, have good volume but it is spread out across a state; so they need more cameras versus unlimited plan for one camera. As well as the ones who might not need all the kitchens all at once, and pick and choose between them. So we're definitely very curated towards service providers community.

Dan Smigrod: 01:29:16 And for those who want to find out pricing?

Anton Yakubenko: 01:29:20 So currently please reach out to us at and we will send you the pricing. And since this is the pricing for early adopters and it might change in the future, we don't want to put it publicly yet and set it in stone.

Dan Smigrod: 01:29:42 So today being the last day of February, you're still working with a limited beta with special pricing for that kind of inner circle. And you anticipate having some different pricing as time goes by that maybe unbundles the unlimited process and the unlimited hosting, and perhaps some other features based on what photographers are asking about. But right now at the moment the sweet spot for GeoCV is busy, prolific, successful real estate photographers that are already doing a lot of 3D Tours, that perhaps find some of those keywords that you went over incredibly important.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:30:34 Yeah. Maybe one other thing just to reiterate - that the 3D Tour is computed full automatically so you as a photographer don't need to do any manual stitching, or editing, or linking or whatever. And also during capturing you have this real-time feedback, which is very important to ease this learning curve; and to give you a comparison what Kevin said, like when you don't have it, for example, for the long shooting, it becomes more complex because you don't see what you're going to get onsite. And that's a very important piece, I would say.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:31:22 Then probably what I would like to briefly go through is that we have currently discussed the basic 3D Tour and some of the customization features, such as white-labeling, such as branding by service providers, such as drone and so on. But actually there are more into this and hopefully I'd like to show you a few examples to show a few other features available in the 3D Tour, if you don't mind.

Dan Smigrod: 01:31:56 Sure, that would be great.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:31:58 Okay.

Dan Smigrod: 01:31:59 While you're setting up, I'm gonna talk a little bit about the We Get Around Network, WGAN 360 camera loaner program. So for WGAN basic standard and premium members - and you're in the United States - and you'd like to borrow a GeoCV kit, Anton and his team have been kind enough to provide a GeoCV kit to WGAN 360 camera loaner program. And that's available to any basic standard or premium member. Just simply go to your welcome on board letter and look for the loaner program, there's an order form.

Dan Smigrod: 01:32:41 I can tell you there's a waiting list as you can imagine, but I encourage you to get on the list if you have any interest in borrowing. The only charges that we ask you to pay for shipping back to us and provide some insurance on the camera. But other than that we'll ship you the camera, you can play with it for about two weeks and then we'd ask for you to ship it back to us - or to send it to the next We Get Around Network member on the list to get that. Thanks Anton for your patience, you wanted to show us some additional features?

Anton Yakubenko: 01:33:18 Yeah, one thing that I have briefly showed is it's really important that it can integrate all the information about the listing just in this information block; which will include the address, the price, number of bedrooms and bathrooms, a short description, as well as contact information for your agents so they can actually use this as a lead generation form if you include the brokerage logo and its website. And as we have seen with Kevin's example, power by GeoCV could be replaced by... Captured by the service provider name. So, this is we call info block and it allows you to add information, contact and branding of your customer to the experience.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:34:10 Then the second one is like pins, or rich media annotations. So you can put an annotation at any spot in the 3D model or 360 image. And it could be just image, a combination of image and text, a video, a file, a link or whatever. But probably most important is that it also allows you to do custom pins, which means that we can input custom HTML code inside the pin and create whatever you want. For example, we had an experiment to create a retail shopping experience, where you can add a Buy button to each item in a showroom. Or it could be a training system; or it could be just your style of tags versus the style of tags that we provide by default out of the box. So it gives you a lot of possibility to go beyond standard rich media integration.

Dan Smigrod: 01:35:40 Terrific. If that is... Today's Thursday, February 28th 2019. Is that annotation possible today?

Anton Yakubenko: 01:35:49 Yes, it's already available in the tour editor. So basically as soon as your 3D Tour has been processed, you get an email notification and you have web dashboard with all your 3D Tours. You can click on any of it and you can start editing; in particular including these pins. Another feature is adding the highlights of the space, which allows you to create a more guided walkthrough. So for example, you can start with a living room, then go to the dining room, look at the kitchen, then maybe go to the bedroom, teleport to the bathroom and then teleport to the terrace. We can also include standalone 360 images, which we call viewpoints, such as amenity spaces like a gym or room that could be included in it as well.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:36:56 So basically. in total you have a lot of ways how you can customize the experience, including age in the description, contact information, branding of your customer and yourself, adding in setting highlights, hiding some unnecessary panoramas or hiding some controls and integration modes, setting the starting position and so on.

Dan Smigrod: 01:37:20 Terrific. Thank you for taking us off screen share. So Leon, Tim in our virtual studio audience - if you have some questions you wanna ask, please let me know. I know Kevin needed to take off to continue shooting at that multi-million dollar house. Leon, we'll leave that tactical question, if you could post that in the forum for Anton - if you had a big-picture question, we'd do that.

Dan Smigrod: 01:37:51 Matterport versus GeoCV, a lawsuit. What's that all about, what should we expect, how does this affect somebody that's thinking of buying a GeoCV kit?

Anton Yakubenko: 01:38:02 Yeah, so basically the litigation process has started and if it goes to the very end, it could last for about two and a half years. We strongly believe that we have a strong position in proving non-infringement of any valid Matterport claim. At the same time, we're in discussions with Matterport to resolve the litigation.

Dan Smigrod: 01:38:26 Okay, terrific. I can imagine your attorneys have advised you not to share too much, but we thank you for at least telling us that much. And if you're interested in seeing all the court filings, if you're a We Get Around Network Forum member you get free access. We Get Around pays for all the litigation documents that are being produced. And if you're a We Get Around Network Forum member, either just send me a private message to request the password and link; or as soon as you joint the We Get Around Network Forum, you get 50 plus membership benefits, one of them happens to be to get access to all the litigation information.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:39:07 I see a couple of questions in the chat. Should I go through all of them?

Dan Smigrod: 01:39:16 I think what we'll do is we'll hold those questions, we'll ask Tim or Leon to post them in the We Get Around Network Forum. I think we've been going for almost two hours now and I'm tired.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:39:28 Okay.

Dan Smigrod: 01:39:28 I'm sure you probably are too. I just wanted to give you, before we wrap it up, one last opportunity if you felt there was something that we missed covering today and you're just dying to talk about it.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:39:42 I don't know if it's quite simple, but I think it's important for people to understand how the 3D Tour is delivered. So it's not like a file, it's a link such as Main Street - which in the future we will be able to customize - and you can share this link either by sending it, you can embed it on the website, we can provide an unbranded MLS compliant version, which hides all the agent information out of experience, as well as all external links.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:40:17 And you don't need any special software or any special plug-in to your browser to view it, it could be viewed on the absolute majority of devices - both laptops, desktops and mobile - and the absolute majority of browsers [inaudible 01:40:35]. You also have an option to password protect the 3D Tour. The 3D Tours are by default hosted by us using Amazon Web Services, but if for some reason such as privacy, security, you want to host it by yourself, we provide you this ability as well.

Dan Smigrod: 01:40:58 Terrific. Anton, thanks for being on the show today.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:41:01 Thank you, Dan.

Dan Smigrod: 01:41:03 Much appreciated.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:41:04 Thank you, Dan.

Dan Smigrod: 01:41:04 We've been visiting with Anton Yakubenko, he's the co-founder of GeoCV, also the CEO. And if you've missed any portion of today's show, we have been recording it. We will post it in the We Get Around Network Forum tomorrow, March 1st 2019. If you're watching us on the WGAN-TV YouTube channel, come join us in the We Get Around Network Forum. Website is Totally free to join the We Get Around Network Forum and as soon as you join, you get about fifty membership benefits.

Dan Smigrod: 01:41:50 So love to have you here - Anton is an active member of the We Get Around Network Forum, a premium member. He's really good about answering questions so if you felt like we didn't cover what you were thinking about or got questions, feel free to post it in the We Get Around Network Forum. You can certainly - if you've got questions and you want to reach out, you're interested in GeoCV kit, getting started - Anton said Their website again is, If you want to see examples, and if you're interested in seeing all the frequently asked questions, Anton let us know that the week of March 3rd 2019, GeoCV will be publishing an exhaustive list of FAQs on the topics that include viewing, sharing, capturing, processing, deliverables, editing, customization, purchasing.

Dan Smigrod: 01:43:00 It's quite a lot of information and I think the piece that I would add in, Anton, is congratulations. This GeoCV is something totally amazing. You've been working at this for quite some time, you've been very patient of understanding the market, finding the opportunities. And you've just started marketing in the US and I think you're already building perhaps a waiting list on - we didn't even talk about international, I know I said goodbye but I gotta bring you back - let's talk about international.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:43:38 Yeah, so far we can only ship to the US addresses and I know that most entrepreneurial forum members have found a way to ship it to the US address and then ship it to another country. We cannot promote this as a company this week, but at the same time it's solely the decision of our customer and we can't stop it as well.

Dan Smigrod: 01:44:10 And if you're outside of the United States and you're interested in a GeoCV kit, you're not going to hear Anton say it, but I'm gonna say it; there's a lot of discussion going on in the We Get Around Network Forum around the company called myus - M-Y-U-S - .com, which provides you with a US address and provides freight forwarding of anything that you order in the United States, they send you in whatever country you are in. I encourage you to read those discussions about how to have a U.S. address and have things like a GeoCV kit forwarded to you internationally. Even though Anton will tell you they're not supporting international sales and support in languages, et cetera; if you're still dying to get a hold of one, is an example of a company that can do that.

Dan Smigrod: 01:45:04 Thank you, Anton. Thank you again [crosstalk 01:45:07] for being on the show, congratulations and thank you all for tuning into WGAN-TV Live at 5.

Anton Yakubenko: 01:45:14 Thank you, Dan. And thank you for continuous support. Bye-bye.

Dan Smigrod: 01:45:17 Bye-bye, Anton.
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