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WGAN-TV: 4 Real Estate Photographer Pro Courses: Which is Right for You? with Ft. Worth, Texas-based Norman & Young and Courses Creator Eli Jones | Thursday, 25 March 2021

WGAN-TV Transcript: 4 Real Estate Photographer Pro Courses: Which is Right for You?

Hi All,

Transcript below ...

On this WGAN-TV Live at 5, my guest was Ft. Worth, Texas-based Norman & Young Founder Eli Jones. Norman & Young is a real estate photography agency (including Matterport) and has 18+ employees. Eli is also the Creator of four real estate photography courses. This interview aired live on Thursday, 25 March 2021:

Four Real Estate Photographer Pro Courses: Which is Right for You with Courses Creator Eli Jones

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Succeed faster with the training that is right for you: (watch this WGAN-TV Podcast for help deciding)

1. Real Estate Photographer Pro - Save $400 with Coupon Code: WEGETAROUND
2. Crash Course 1 | The 5 Day 3D Tour Professional - Save $50 with Coupon Code: WEGETAROUND
3. Crash Course 2 | The 5 Day Real Estate Photographer - Save $100 with Coupon Code: WEGETAROUND
4. Business and Finance Pro for Photographers | Save $400 with Coupon Code: WEGETAROUND

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P.S. Eli Jones previous guest appearance on WGAN-TV Live at 5

Transcript: WGAN-TV MSPs: How to Price Matterport, Photos, Video and Drone with Eli Jones

Transcript (video above)

- Hi all, I'm Dan Smigrod, Founder of the We Get Around network Forum, Today is Thursday, March 25, 2021, and you're watching WGAN-TV Live at 5.

We have an awesome show for you today: Four Real Estate Photographer Pro Courses: Which One is Right for You? And, to talk about that is our guests, Eli Jones. Hey, Eli, good to see you again.

- Dan, good to see you, thanks for having me.

- You bet. Thanks for being back on the show again. Eli is the Fort Worth, Texas based Founder of Norman & Young, a photography agency with 18+ team members.

And, Eli is also the Creator of Real Estate Photographer Pro course, and now three more courses! Eli, you've been very busy creating courses!

- We have been. I have a good team behind me. It makes it easier: but busy indeed.

- Awesome. Before we jump into which of the four different courses that you've created; and who those courses are for, and what's included, let's just go back a little bit in terms of how you even got started in real estate photography. Can you tell us that story?

- Yeah, definitely. I think like a lot of people, real estate photography is not something you just wake up one day and go, I'm going to shoot real estate.

So I'd always shot photos that ... on an amateur basis when I was a kid growing up and then my family moved from Anchorage, Alaska to Texas, and I had nothing to do except for mess with my camera, and it just so happened to work out where my Mom became an agent to buy their personal house, and I was able to shoot photos for her one time, really for her broker through her and the photos were horrible.

But it was enough to get me started in the industry, and I was able to get some referrals from there and just keep the ball rolling.

- Awesome! I hope your Mom paid you well.

- Her broker did, so that was good. Actually $50 a shoot, which is not well but it was great for a kid.

- I hope you've raised your prices since that!

- Definitely had to do that.

- Awesome. So fast forward today. Give us a little bit of the scale and scope of Norman & Young.

- Yes. So we started in a little town called Granbury with just me and my brother. That was about seven and a half years ago or so. Today we operate all across the DFW Metroplex, there's probably ... 35 cities in the area.

I don't exactly know how many staff we have right now; somewhere between 16 and 18.

It kind of fluctuates based on the season, but we shoot and cover the whole area. We do somewhere around 400 shoots a month: it does fluctuate based upon season of course, but somewhere around there, and we're a seven figure company these days.


- And we're a Matterport centric Community You are shooting Matterport ... As part of the services that you offer.

- Yes. We have three big services if you will. We have our standard photos. We have video and then Matterport. Those are our big three: when it comes to the product we offer our clients.

- Awesome. I appreciate you coming back on the show. I know you were visiting with us in October 2020, and did a show: Matterport Service Providers:

How to Price Matterport, Photos, Video and Drone, an awesome show, anybody looking for that, we'll put that link in the notes below.

And congratulations on where you are today, versus where you were seven years ago.

- Thank you. Yes. It's been a lot of fun. A lot of work. But all good things are of course. So. Yes. Thanks.


- You're welcome. So it sounds like it really does make you a subject matter expert on real estate photography. So your first course, Real Estate Photographer Pro: why did you create the course?

- Yeah, funny enough, it actually started. I think we kind of touched on this last time but it started out as what we wanted to build was an employee training manual if you will. We were hiring enough people where we did the same for the first week, if you will. It was the same thing with every employee.

And so I started thinking, okay, we could ... digital way building that, and then we started seeing that a lot of other people who had ...skills; especially in the photo and video industry were making courses that were able to help a lot of people and be great for the companies creating them.

So we thought, okay, we're doing this; might as well just go ahead and make the full course. And so we restarted the process and completely went start to finish with... every aspect of our business.

- So that's kind of the why, obviously who it was originally created for was your team, but more broadly speaking today, who is Real Estate Photographer Pro course for?

- We built it for the start. After we decided we're going to make this for other people besides our team. We thought; okay we can help photographers make a better living in the industry or help real estate photographers grow their business.

But we've really expanded the course to be able to get someone that has no camera experience, to a place where they can grow a decent company; whether that's a fully book single photographer company or scale like we did.

And so we built out those more beginner camera lessons, if you will. And so now our pitch is that anybody can do it regardless of camera experience, all you have to want is to be a full-time photographer or have a good side hustle. So that was ... that's where it's gone since then. And it's something I think anybody can take advantage of that's interested in the industry.


- Would an existing real estate photographer benefit from your course or really it's best to be a newbie? I think I'm a photographer enthusiast. I think I'm interested in real estate photography. Is that the sweet spot for you?

- At the start, I would say it wasn't that. It was for the existing real estate photographer. Now we've added that 10 to 20% content needed to catch someone up, and so really both I think those people could benefit.

There's a lot to be learned and I think a lot that existing real estate photographers do - that doesn't help their business.

So, if you are an existing real estate photographer there's a lot of things we try to break down and quantify that can help you understand where you could be doing better, but if you are a new photographer, obviously we catch you up to that point and then lead you in the right direction.

- So whether you're literally just starting out, even before you bought a camera, I'm already...

- We have a lot of people who don't own a camera.

- So all the way to, I haven't bought it, I haven't yet bought a camera, which camera do you suggest I buy? All the way to, I'm a real estate photographer, I'm struggling, I'm not having the success that I know I think I should have, I'd like to succeed faster: Real Estate Photographer Pro course.

- Yeah, definitely. We have everything from teams that already have eight photographers at their company, to people who've never touched a camera in their life. So we've really tried to build something that wherever you are in the spectrum will still make sense, and you'll still get value from it.


- I buy the course, what do I get?

- A bunch of things. The first thing you get obviously access to is the course itself, and I have it broken down in a way that based upon members' feedback is easily digestible. So we start with kind of the basics and then we cover the business side of the real estate photography industry.

And I think that to me is the most important thing that a lot of people gloss over, they go straight to how to make better photos. But better photos are only, half the equation at best, and so we dive into the business section and these are all the video lectures.

I don't like a bunch of written stuff. It's harder for me to learn that way. So they're all video lectures. Then we cover our three main products and our entire workflows for those from presets to on scene; on location videos.

Everything like that for photos, 3D tours and videos, of course. And then we cover a bunch of stuff regarding scaling up. So if you're someone that you're maybe at the point where you're fully booked and you're like, hey I'd like to be able to offload some of this work and build a business with employees and maybe be able to get some of my time back. We teach that as well.

And so that's the course piece, and then what I think has become really one of the most valuable parts is our Facebook group. We now have about 2,400 members in there, who are all engaging with each other, who all have a similar model to follow, which I think is the real benefit.

There's a lot of Facebook groups where everybody's coming from a different model, and so you can't really take one piece of advice from one model and one from the other.

So our group is very cohesive in that way. And that's also where we do our weekly, two times a week Q&As actually where myself and usually a couple members of my team go live for an hour and answer anybody's question. So that's sort of the package that comes with Real Estate Photographer Pro.

- Awesome. I know I've been through about 60% of the course. I find it awesome, and my reaction going through the Real Estate Photographer Pro course: wish this existed when I got started!

- The same for me, honestly. And that's what we set out when we started building it. I want to build the course that I wish I had, because I think that's the best way to make sure you deliver to your market what you would have wanted in a good product. So that's the way we feel as well; thanks for saying that.

- Yes. You bet. For our WGAN-TV listeners, our WGAN Forum Members, you can save $400 on Real Estate Photographer Pro course when you use our affiliate link, and use the code WEGETAROUND That's the coupon code, WEGETAROUND, all caps.

Plus as a bonus, an All Access Pass for 12 months, to the WGAN-TV Training Academy, 95 courses, it's a bundle of all things 3D/360 virtual tours for real estate.

And we, frankly, we take shows like this and we just bundle it as part of that, and so it makes it easy to consume WGAN-TV shows, as well as some content that is available exclusively within the WGAN-TV Training Academy.


Course number two. Crash Course: the 5 Day 3D Tour Professional.

- Yes. So this is a mini-course of ours that kind of falls under Real Estate Photographer Pro but if you just want to get your feet wet with ... I'd say popular and marketable skill, which is 3D tours, that's what we built that for. And so we've cut out all of the other sections, there's no video, nothing like that. It's just focused on 3D tours.

And I built it in a way where you can go through it in a day by day format and be caught up to speed in a five day format. It doesn't mean you couldn't watch it all in one day, but we've broken it up day by day and an easy way for you to understand how to shoot 3D tours, what clients are going to order 3D tours from you.

How to price 3D tours and everything like that. So it's a deep dive into creating 3D tours.

- So this Crash Course, the 5 Day 3D Tour Professional is a subset of Real Estate Photographer Pro course.

- Correct.

- If you don't want/need the entire Real Estate Photographer Pro course, who would that be? Who would be the target?

- Yes. We built this course initially because of the massive demand that 3D tours went through over the last year given the [COVID-19] circumstances we face. So we saw a lot of people that were like, okay, maybe I'm no longer working my other job or I want to start another side job or the side job I currently had doesn't exist anymore, so I need to start something new, what do I do?

And they didn't necessarily want to get into everything that comes with being a real estate photographer. They just wanted to be able to provide a really popular service on the side.

And so we built an easy to digest course that they could take advantage of. And that's really who we build that course for.


- So is it, if I'm an existing real estate photographer, and I've never done a virtual tour, a 3D tour, am I a good candidate for this program, this course?

- You'd definitely be a good candidate. It covers our entire 3D tour workflow. So everything we offer to our clients as a 3D tour product we just package that up individually, and so if you wanted to add that on as a service to your existing business, I think 3D ... the 5 Day 3D Tour Professional would be a great course for you.

- So is it also for those who are interested maybe ... I'm a wedding photographer. I'm an event photographer. During COVID, I'm no longer doing weddings. I'm no longer doing events. I am going to switch to offering virtual tours in real estate. I just need a deep dive into how to create a 3D tour.

- Yeah, that's a big portion of our members of that group are definitely that they've come from other niches within photography that maybe have slowed down a little bit.

So there's a big portion that are doing that. And then, also a big portion of people who just want to get their feet wet in the industry.

And 3D tours are a great way to do that. They're frankly, easier to do than photos in a lot of cases, and so it's a great way to see if the photo and media industry in general is a good fit for you.


- Eli, the We Get Around Network Forum; we actually curate a list of platforms and cameras, today, Thursday, March 25th, 2021, there are 170 plus virtual tour platforms and software, there are 50 plus 3D or 360 cameras for creating virtual tours.

Have you decided which platform, which camera, that you're using specifically for your course?

- We have. Yes. We've done a lot of testing within a number of platforms, and most of our content is Matterport centric, not so much because of the Matterport platform itself, but just because of the weight that it carries as a 3D tour company.

Agents know about it. A lot of builders know about it. A lot of people who have Airbnb know about it. And so there's already that name recognition.

So it's an easier product to sell them, and I think it's a fantastic product compared to a lot of those out there. So we teach Matterport, but we don't use the Matterport manufactured cameras. I think those are frankly, a lot more expensive than you need for real estate use. So we use some of the third-party supported 360 cameras in our teaching.

- So, in fact, as of today, Thursday March 25, 2021, in terms of the cameras that Matterport supports, the Matterport Pro2 3D Camera, the Matterport Pro2 3D Light, the Matterport 3D camera, which we in the WGAN Forum referred to as the Pro1, then and I'm hearing you don't use any of those cameras.

Then let me tick off the cameras that are presently supported, the Ricoh Theta Z1.


So, is that a camera included in the course?

- Yes. So the Matterport Pro cameras, the whole generation, the whole suite of them, I should say we've owned those at one time or another. And the reason we switched to the other 360 cameras we actually use the Ricoh Theta Z1, is one because of the price. It's a thousand dollars versus $2,500 plus.

But the speed of scanning with those cameras is a lot faster. And so for the applications we teach our students, it makes sense to be able to be faster even if there's a slight quality decrease from the Matterport manufactured cameras.

And so the Ricoh Theta Z1 is a camera we use and recommend. We also on the lower budget end recommend the Insta360 ONE X. I think that's a great camera. I would stay away from the Ricoh Theta V, not too good at quality, but the Insta360 ONE X or Z1 are two great options that we recommend

- Or Insta36O ONE X2.

- Yeah, so that's still on the fence because the ONE X2 doesn't seem to be globally supported by Matterport. I don't know if you have an update on that, but as of a few days ago, the ONE X2 wasn't yet compatible.

- All I know it is, but I think before anybody goes and buys an Insta360 ONE X2, please post in the We Get Around Network Forum, and we'll clear that up for you.

- It's a good idea.

- Make sure that it's supported. Gee! I want to say, even today I just want to just take a look at those.

- I went to their website and it just says the recently we've tested this that just says the ONE X, but if you click on the ONE X from their website, it takes you to the Amazon link for the ONE X2. So it's still hard to say. I've had a bunch of members say it's not yet supported.

- Yeah, I just want, because there was just an announcement today. So I actually want to just go, I'm going to a WGAN Forum post that is called... We Get Around network Forum post, and the title of the post today is: Cameras Supported by Matterport paired with Android.

Literally as of today, Thursday March 25, 2021, an Insta360 ONE X2 is actually supported. So both 360 ONE X, the Insta360 ONE X2 are supported with Android, but frankly, I don't know the answer in terms of iOS, if that's, if it is.

So certainly the Insta360 ONE X is supported by iOS.


So that's good to know because even though Matterport supports a number of cameras, I think what I'm hearing is really two cameras that you're suggesting; if you got the dollars for the Ricoh Theta Z1. Spend it. And, if you're still a little bit strapped on cash, maybe go with the Insta360 ONE X maybe the Insta360 ONE X2 depending on...

- Yeah, hopefully. So, I mean, I think in the coming weeks, it will, for sure, be supported. It's just yet to be determined on that. But yeah, those two cameras are the ones that we recommend, Theta V not worth it at all, just quality's too low but the others are great.

- Yeah, and the Ricoh Theta Z1 is, I would say today it's about a thousand dollars, that said just yesterday Ricoh announced the Ricoh Theta Z1 -- I would call it a premium, which is bumped up storage. So that one is supposed to come out May 2021, that's listed for $1,050.

So that probably means the Z1 will continue to be offered in its existing configuration, just at a lower price. So I think you'll actually have two flavors of Ricoh Theta Z1, and frankly, if you're I'm going to guess, if you're shooting real estate, you don't need to pay for the extra storage.

- Yeah, definitely not.

- It's really for a different use case of...

- Yeah, so that'd be good news for us, if that price drop happens definitely.

- Yes. New one is coming out. The new Ricoh Theta Z1, I'm calling it premium, but it's actually, in fact let me just look in the Excuse me. The new name for the new camera is Ricoh Theta Z1 51GB.

- Very clever.

- That's actually the name. So the single feature that the upgrade is now...

- Yeah, the gigabytes there.

- The gigabytes. So anyway, yeah, I think that would be good news because you're not going to need that bigger storage if you're just doing real estate.

- Definitely not, yeah.

- So maybe that thousand dollar camera will come down some.

- Yeah, it'd be nice to see it down for sure.

- Anyway I've digressed some here.


So we've talked about the why and who it's for, is there anything else, I guess the, what is it? It literally is Real Estate Photographer Pro course on everything that has to do with creating Matterport 3D tours.

- Correct. Yeah, it's everything from the main course. We stripped it down and put it in a way that's digestible and makes sense. So there's a few new videos that kind of connect some dots, but yes. It's the exact same thing. It's all the info you'd get regarding 3D tours.

- Yeah, if you will Eli just spend a little bit more time because since our Community is so Matterport centric and people are coming to say, you know, do I need to spend $3,000 on a Matterport Pro2 3D camera?

Can you talk a little bit more about: you used that camera in your workflow at Norman & Young. Why did you choose, what were all the reasons you chose to switch?

- Sure, so the one that obviously is going to be at the top of everybody's mind first is price. The Matterport Pro2 Cameras are many thousands more than a Ricoh Theta Z1, and so that's the first reason.

As we were scaling our team, it becomes expensive, you have to buy 10 of a $3,000 camera and it adds up very quickly. And so from a business standpoint, we were looking for options that would allow us to be within a similar quality, but maybe reduce the price point.

And so we saw the Ricoh Theta Z1 and we started testing it, we actually first started testing the V. And I remember when I first set up the camera, I was just thinking it was purely a price play. I set up the camera and I did the first scan, it was actually right over here in our office, and it was so fast.

And so I was like, I don't know if it's finished or not, and what I've come to learn, or what I came to learn at that point was, you know, the Matterport camera, it has a motor and it takes a photo, turns, takes a photo, turns, until it's done.

The Ricoh Theta Z1 is a 360 camera, so it gets that all in one picture. And so not only were we able to save a couple of thousand dollars on the upfront camera, the amount of time scanning a house went from about 45 minutes to an average house to about 20 minutes at the most.

And so for, you know, 90% of the quality, we were able to save $2,000; way speed up our workflow, especially during a time when it was harder to get Matterport cameras at the start of COVID: there were just much more issues with the supply chain.

So it wasn't even possible to get that many. And so it kind of checked all those boxes for us, and we've not looked back since then, mainly because workflows speed up we've been able to get the same amount of work done and produce the same product effectively in a third of the time.

And so those are the two main reasons that we don't recommend that for our use case. Now there may be some clients if you're shooting 10 plus million dollar real estate or any kind of design or architecture related jobs, they may demand that few percent in quality increase, but for standard real estate work for builders, for Airbnbs they're not going to notice that they're not blowing that scan up huge, they don't need any of that back end data that the Matterport Pro2 camera will get more accurately.

So for us, it was a clear choice and we've been happy with those cameras for a little bit over a year now we've been using them.


- And what about photographers that might say, yeah, but the quality of the photography of the Pro2 is better than the Ricoh Theta Z1 for Matterport Pro2.

- Yeah, I mean it is unquestionably better. The question is, and this is something we refer back to a lot in our course, where does that quality matter in your business? So a lot of people think that that would be noticed or think that would be an issue, but they don't fully look into what the client cares for.

The way I look at it is if something costs me way more I have to charge more for it to make it work. And my clients would much rather have a 3% less good product for a third the price. And so that's how we look at a lot of things, and that's what's allowed us to be successful, is not just fixating like a lot of photographers do.

And it's, I understand why it's tempting to fixate so much on your product, but we've stepped away from fixating just on that and looked at the other variables. Like, how much can we charge for this now? Can we reduce the price? Would our clients like that? If the quality is close enough, do our clients even care that it's less if they have to pay less?

So we look at a lot of factors when we make a decision like that. And ultimately we've had no clients and we've gone from the Pro2 to the Z1. So they saw them side by side, we've had no complaints and they have done thousands of Matterport shoots since then.

So I think I'm fixating on the quality over the actual data on what matters to your clients is a big mistake, and that's what we try to avoid doing.

- Matterport doesn't support the floor plans that are created with the Ricoh Theta Z1; does that matter?

- Yes, it does matter, but there's a really easy work around there's software called CubiCasa, that does floor plans for you, there's a lot of other softwares. So ... you don't need that expensive camera to get the floor plan. You can get that at a bunch of what.

- I think we had a little hiccup in our.

- Oh, I'm sorry, can you hear me now?

- I can, we're good. Part of the way we do We Get Around Network Forum and we use some technology. So I apologize that we've had an interruption on you.


So floor plans: we were able to hear that. In our previous show for our viewers who are watching, when Eli was on the show, talking about: How to Price Matterport, Photos, Video, and Drone - we had a long conversation about; are you an artist or are you a business person?

We talked about ... good, good enough, is good enough .. So I think this is such an interesting strategy that Eli has discussed here. First of all, he runs the business with about 18 photographers.

So not to have any loss in business, switching to a Ricoh Theta Z1, from a Matterport Pro2, Eli has just paid for the course, by giving you the confidence that you can buy a Ricoh Theta Z1, about a thousand dollars, an Insta360 ONE X, about $500 rather than buying a Matterport Pro2 Camera.

If your niche is residential real estate, and you actually don't need the data capture capability of the Matterport Pro2.

- Yeah.

- There are other solutions for photography. So just that first thing. I think you've already done the homework in order to say, why are you going to spend $3,000 on a camera when you can spend $500 or $1,000, the $2,000 or $2,500 ahead and invest that in Eli's Crash Course: the 5 Day 3D Tour Professional.

So I think that's ... I point that out and I just think that the second thing to point out, this is so huge. You ... had that aha moment. We can create tours in 15 to 20 minutes, instead of 45 minutes to an hour for an average size home.

And just by doing that, you are able to probably offer the virtual tours at a competitive price point compared to a person that shoots with a Matterport Pro2. And also I could imagine ... if the real estate agent is actually onsite babysitting you then; they probably would appreciate that you're in and out way faster than a Photographer using a different [Pro2] camera.


- One thing I will say that I think is one of my more core beliefs when it comes to this industry, is that most photographers are held back by the quality of their photos.

And that sounds interesting given what I've just said, but it's the opposite way that a lot of photographers think.

When I say a photographer is held back by the quality of their photos, I see they're putting too much effort into that, and they're only focused on that. And meanwhile the agents aren't even asking for that. They're asking for a lot of other things, like you said you mentioned a huge one, they don't want to be on site for three hours! And so if you have to spend a lot more time scanning, they don't like that.

So there's all of these factors. And I think it's just so dangerous to fixate only on quality. And that's one of my big things that I teach is step back from that. That's one of three variables you need to look at - or one in five variables, depending on how you look at it and very important to have that concept down.

- Yes. I would say for any of our viewers that are trying to decide - do I get Real Estate Photographer Pro course, or do I get the Crash Course: the 5 Day 3D Tour Professional?

If you can afford Real Estate Photographer Pro course, it'll probably pay back in spades because you get this kind of analysis and thinking by Eli, that helps you understand really how to be a business person perhaps more than being an artist and why good enough is acceptable if your intent is to make money.

So anyway, I tossed that out on Real Estate Photographer Pro Course, you can save $400 with WGAN affiliate link coupon code: WEGETAROUND On the Crash Course 1: the 5 Day 3D Tour Professional, you can save $50 using the WGAN affiliate link


Crash Course 2: the 5 Day Real Estate Photographer. Why did you create this course?

- Yeah, so similar to the 3D Tour Crash Course, and there were a certain group of people that didn't want everything that was included in Real Estate Photographer Pro. Maybe they already had a real estate photography business they felt was doing well enough, and they just were interested in our workflow.

And so we made exactly that. It's a course that teaches just the photo aspect of our full course. So we teach them how to shoot the photos and what gear to buy. We teach them how to edit the photos. We give them our presets and everything they need to know to replicate the quality of photo that Norman & Young produces.

So it's again, just taken from Real Estate Photographer Pro, the specific to the still photo side of the course, made into a mini-course that's easier for a lot of people to get into, a nicer way to get their feet wet, if they're just looking for a little, a smaller course to digest.


- So on this Crash Course 2: the 5 Day Real Estate Photographer, who is the ideal candidate for this course?

- This is really somebody in my mind that wants to, there's two people really, but the first one is someone that wants to get Real Estate Photographer Pro, but they want to see if they like the industry before they spend a little bit more for the full course.

So it's an easy way for them to get in. And two, as I mentioned a minute ago, it's for somebody who has an existing photography business they feel like they have the business side down, they're not really interested in that but they want to know more about our workflow, specifically maybe for some efficiency improvement or something like that.

And so those are the two people we designed it for.

- I'm a wedding photographer. I'm an event photographer. COVID has just really wiped out my business for in-person, lots of people, weddings and events. Is the 5 Day Real Estate Photographer -- are those good candidates for this?

- Yes. I wouldn't say so. If you're an existing photographer, it'll be even more easily digestible if you will because you'll know a lot of this stuff we have to teach to beginners. So I think it'd be a great way and a great course to allow you to pivot into something else while weddings are a little bit slower.

So Yes. I think that would be a... those would make ideal candidates.


- So, and can you talk a little bit more about what's actually included? I know you said it's a subset of the Real Estate Photographer Pro course, but what is that sub-set? What are the courses?

- Yes. So specifically we're only teaching our photo workflow. So what I mean by that is we start with what equipment you need of course, then the next it's broken up into a five day format.

So you know, day one covers the background and the basics you'll need to know, and then day two, we go in and we actually shoot a house, and show the full behind the scenes process of what ... ... some other stuff about how many photos of different rooms and that kind of stuff.

And then day three, we come back to the editing room and we show you our full editing workflow. So it would take the photos off the camera, running through the various softwares we run them through, give you our presets, so most of it's automated for you.

Get the final photos and then day four and five, we cover a couple of more niche stuff like Twilight photos, and grass greening and sky replacements, and some other stuff you need to know to improve your photos but also be able to make more money because clients will pay for upgrades like that. And so we just teach the photo specific stuff that we've learned in our process that we implement with our clients here in DFW.

- DFW would be Dallas-Fort Worth.

- Dallas-Fort Worth, yes, sir.

- So I'm a wedding photographer. I have no examples of $330,000 homes of real estate. Do I get any examples to include on my website?

- Yes. So one thing we do is we include all of our RAW photos. So not only can our members follow along in the videos and actually edit the photos themselves, but you're also welcome to use those in your portfolio. The way I look at it is most of the skill if you will, in real estate photography is the editing.

And so if you take raw photos and edit them yourselves using our process, we allow you to use those in your portfolio to get things jump-started, because you'll be able to replicate those photos on your first shoot. So yes, you do indeed get a bunch of assets to play along with it as you watch.


- What kind of presets do I get?

- Yeah, so we use two softwares primarily. So we have our HDR software, you get all of our HDR presets, and then you have our Lightroom presets as well, which is kind of the two stages that photos go through during the editing process.

So there's no need to make your own presets. No need to know anything about that process. You just import our presets and you're good to go.

- Would the presets almost be worth the course itself? Because it...

- Yes! ... One shoot and you've paid for the full course. So, I think it's definitely fair to say that the presets alone would be worth the price of the course.

- Yes. That's interesting because truly if you can do one shoot or one more shoot than you would normally do or charged for one more than you normally do then...

- Yeah I mean, it's more than frankly along the lines of those presets, the interesting thing about our presets is, because we shoot so many homes, we have a huge data set to test them on. And so we've refined them and come out with multiple generations.

Actually, we just updated them in the course a couple months ago, and so all of our members get access to our future preset updates as well.

- So you're coming in and out. I can't.

- I'm still here if you can hear me.

- Okay.

- Can you hear me perfect. ;-)

- So you were about to say, I'm so sorry, I couldn't hear frozen.

- Yeah, so regarding the presets we have a big data set to work with given that we shoot so many houses, and so we've refined the presets a lot over time and over a bunch of different house types, but also our course members, and we just updated them a few months ago, get access to all of our future preset revisions.

So if our editing team notices something they want tweaked slightly, we update our presets and then upload them to our course members as well. So it kind of saves you from having to test and improve yourself, we sort of handle that and then pass it onto you.


- Awesome! You have a couple thousand members in your Facebook group. Does Crash Course 2, the 5 Day Real Estate Photographer, is access to that member only group included?

- It is not. That is only for Real Estate Photographer Pro members. So if you're someone who wants the community aspect, the Q&As and everything like that, it probably ...

- Why don't you speak to that? Because I think that might be helpful for photographers trying to decide, Gee! Do I get Real Estate Photographer Pro? Or, do I just get the subset? the 5 Day Real Estate Photographer? Can you speak a little bit about your Facebook group that only comes with the Real Estate Photographer Pro course?

- Yeah, it's actually interesting because the Facebook group to me was kind of like a little side item you got when you join Real Estate Photographer Pro. That's what I thought it was when I first launched the course. But it's interesting to talk to our members, and as the group has developed, people say that just the Facebook group was worth the price of the course.

And I think the part that we touched on a little bit but is important to highlight is that all of the members in the group have been through the course. So when you ask a question, it's basically like you asked a huge group of people with your exact same experience and exact same methods if you will, because there are people who've got the course.

So a lot of people like it for that reason, there's a lot of community support aspects where you can post your photos and get critiques, and it's just a great group of people. I'm in a lot of Facebook groups, of course I want to say this about my own group, but I really think it's a different group than I've ever been in, and I think a lot of our members say that too, and you see that in our reviews and that kind of thing.

But also another big part of that is the Q&As that are only accessible through that group.

So I didn't want to be, and this is something that scared me at the start is there's a lot of course creators who get a bad reputation because they just throw together some info and sell it, and you don't ever hear from them.

You could tell that they were just, it was a money grab for them. And so one way that I wanted to set myself apart, and set our course apart was to be active in the community. And so we do that via those two, one-hour live streams every single week.

We really, it gives us some one-on-one time with members where you can jump in there and ask any questions directly of me and my team live, and so I think that's a big benefit of the group as well.

- So if I'm out on a shoot and I get stuck, I go, okay, I've worked through the problem, but let me participate in the next Real Estate Photographer Pro Facebook live, and say, hey, here's what happened, how would you have handled that? Is that an example of a kind of question?

- Yeah, I mean, definitely we actually funny you said that on the shoot and need help kind of thing. We actually get people posting in the Facebook group at shoots all the time. They're like, hey, I can't figure out how to do this.

So there's that, but yeah, as far as the Q&As goes, that's a great time to dive into any issues you face, but also along the lines of being available we provide full email support. So anybody who sends an email that's a member, we act, we respond to every email, it's not like it's just this huge inbox where we don't respond.

So that's something that we do as well, my team and I just monitor that inbox to answer every question. So you can ask in the live Q&A or you can send an email if you need an answer that day.

- Okay, awesome.

So if you're watching the show and you want to ... you're deciding between Real Estate Photographer Pro, you can save $400 on Real Estate Photographer Pro course, using the WGAN affiliate link, if you just want the Crash Course 2: the 5 Day Real Estate Photographer, you can save a hundred dollars using the WGAN affiliate link, Plus a bonus regardless if you sign up for Real Estate Photographer Pro or the Crash Course 2: the 5 Day Real Estate Photographer - bonus, of an All Access Pass for 12 months to the WGAN-TV Training Academy. Today's Thursday March 25, 2021.

There are 95 courses in that bundle: everything 3D/360 virtual tours for real estate. And, we take shows like this we bundle it into the WGAN-TV Training Academy, plus some content that's not available elsewhere.


Great, that would be a high class problem: which one to get? - Real Estate Photographer Pro or Crash Course 2: the 5 Day Real Estate Photographer. You know, I think either way, you're going to pay for the course, like one shoot, two shoots, it's just not a lot.

- Yes. One shoot depending on the shoot, but yeah.

- Yes. And Real Estate Photographer Pro course: I'm about 60% through with it. ... When I started in real estate photography, I literally bought my Matterport Pro1 3D Camera, July 2014: I came from the world of television and entertainment, going back to my roots of photography, and I'll tell you, it was like ... with my eyes closed, trying to understand this space.

I just wished there was Real Estate Photographer Pro course or at the very least this mini-course, the 5 Day Real Estate Photographer because there's so many things I would have ended up succeeding faster had I been able to get professional training.

And, given that you started; and seven years later, you're up to a team of 18 or so people that your Ft. Worth, Texas-based Norman & Young Photography Agency, who better to create a course than someone who's actually done it: has succeeded with it.

And, as I understand... the only things you put in your courses are things that you've actually had success with. It's not something you've kind of well, try this.

- Yes. Yes. One of our promises ... and one of the things I think sets our course apart is it's sort of like a living business model of what my company does.

So not only is there nothing in there that we haven't directly tested and recommended, but also anytime we learn something because obviously, you know, companies continue to grow and you want to continue to learn.--

So anytime we learn something or change a process, it's reflected in the course. And that's the cool aspect to me, that's you have to take a second to kind of explain but we really do the research for our members if you will.

And so we're always testing stuff and it allows us to do the research in our company and then update the course. So it's really a living course, we update videos all the time, in fact, we update at least one video a week.

And, so we believe that its value really depends on it being a living course, and so we keep it a living course and continue to provide updates based upon what we change and we learn.


- Cool. Business and Finance for Photographers, forgive me, Business and Finance Pro for Photographers. Why did you create that course?

- So, this is our newest course. It's kind of a full course: like Real Estate Photographer Pro, and what we learned over time, this was something I experienced, but a lot of our members do too, is it's easy to teach people, and I shouldn't say it's easy, but we figured out a way where we can teach people how to make a pretty decent money as real estate photographers.

We kind of have that down if you will, Real Estate Photographer Pro gets you there, but I've talked to a lot of our members, and I asked the guy one time, this is kind of what catalyzed the whole course, is he was really excited, he was a younger guy, and he said it was my first $14,000 a month.

And so I was talking to him, I was like, that's great. And then I remember my first few big months, I didn't have any more in my bank account at the end of the month because things came up. You're like excited about scaling, so you buy new gear or you hire somebody, and so I asked him like, do you have more now?

And we were just kind of talking about it, and he goes, no. And he realized it hit him too that no matter how much he was bringing in, it didn't matter if he didn't have processes and systems in place for, and what to do with that money and how to manage his business efficiently on the backend.

And so I wanted to build that course, is kind of like an add on or another thing that's important, because again it doesn't matter how much money you make if you don't know what to do with it and don't keep it.

And that was the focus of this course, is helping people get better with managing their money. Put processes in place for managing that money that they're making with real estate photography, so that they don't end up like a lot of people, and work for a lot of years and have nothing to show for it.

I always say that we work too hard as business owners to not build up anything or have anything to show, and so that's the goal with Business and Finance Pro, is helping people become financially literate, and literate in the business world.

- So who would you describe this course for? What's the sweet spot?

- This is an interesting one, because without sounding like, I just want people to buy it, I really think it's a course that almost anyone should get. And that's why I just called it for photographers, not for real estate photographers, because we market it to wedding photographers, portrait photographers and frankly, anybody who is not great at managing money but owns their own business.

So it's pretty broad. I kind of narrowed it into photographers but it's a course that, I don't think there's anybody that doesn't benefit from multiple times the value of the course.


- And is it, do I need to be making money in order to benefit from this course?

- I don't think so, because I think it's a good precursor to getting in a situation where you will start to make money. At some point or another, if you're involved in business of some kind, there will theoretically be a point where you start to make more, especially in a service business.

And so we've had a lot of people ... and just wanted to make sure they started off on the right foot and had solid financial principles down. And so for that reason, I really wouldn't say that you need to, I think it would be really helpful if you were, but also a great thing to do prior to that.

- Okay, so I buy Business and Finance Pro for Photographers. What do I get?

- So just one of our full courses and what I mean by that is it includes the actual course material itself, so it's over a hundred videos, broken up into two parts.

The first part is kind of the basics of personal finance, and the basics of personal finance for self-employed people with irregular income. I also cover a lot of the little hacks and things I do in my personal finances.

And then the second part, again this is the course itself, the course videos. And the second part is kind of like a mini MBA in a Box if you will, covering business terms, and business structure and business banking and credit, and all that stuff that they don't really teach you, you go to start a business, and you don't have to go find all that ... I had to do at least.

And so I kind of summed up all of that learning all those mistakes I've made into like a mini MBA course piece, but then just like Real Estate Photographer Pro, we have a Facebook group that's dedicated to those members where we do weekly Q&As. So that's the Business and Finance Pro package.

- So is the Facebook group for Business and Finance Pro for photographers different from the Facebook group for Real Estate Photographer Pro?

- Yep, it's a separate Facebook group with separate Q&As and it's only accessible to members of Business and Finance Pro for Photographers. So it's a fully separate Facebook group.

- So Business and Finance Pro for Photographers is your newest course. I could imagine that you anticipate that the Facebook group will become somewhat similar to Real Estate Photographer Pro in terms of structure and what happens.

Could you talk a little more about the Real Estate Photographer Pro Facebook group, what's happening there, so that those that are buying Business and Finance Pro for Photographers have some sense of what's coming, in terms of the community built around that quarters.


- Yeah, so for the Pro Facebook group, it's honestly become a place where we've actually had people and because of the relationships they've built in that group partner up in business. We just had a company actually do that.

They were both in the same setting and they merged companies. So we've had that happen. We've had people meet each other in real life outside of the Facebook group.

And so it's a cool way to develop connections with people that are in your industry or that are specific real estate photographers.

And that's something that I didn't get when I was first starting, because you don't want to go meet real estate photographers in your area because they're competition. And so it's a cool way to network with other people in your industry that get your problems, that understand what your goals are and have a good handle on the industry, but aren't competitors.

You feel more free to share with them and that kind of thing. And so it's a place where you can build relationships with people in your industry, whether that's for business relationships like partnerships like we've seen, or just people that understand your business, and the thing I hope to see in, and we'll continue work on building in Business and Finance Pro is a group of like-minded people that have similar goals and are working towards them together.

- So is there overlap between Business and Finance Pro for Photographers and your other course: Real Estate Photographer Pro?

- Not really, because we really designed that course as a follow-up course for Real Estate Photographer Pro., It's something you could add on if you wanted to make sure that that money your business was producing went to work for you.

And so there's no overlap in terms of subject knowledge, I would say that there's a lot of overlap in terms of members. A lot of people who've joined, the vast majority are members of Real Estate Photographer Pro as well, and liked what we taught there, and figured they would probably like what we taught in Business and Finance Pro as well. So they joined that one also.

- So it sounds like for those that really enjoy taking courses; understand the concept of succeeding faster by getting expert training.

If you're trying to decide between Real Estate Photographer Pro and Business and Finance Pro for Photographers, know that they're different courses, and if you need help succeeding faster as a real estate photographer, then it might make sense to begin with Real Estate Photographer Pro course.

-And then my sense is if you like the training style and how the Facebook group is, and you're enjoying that experience, it sounds like you've had a lot of members of Real Estate Photographer Pro, which are in the thousands who have already decided to say, hey I like what Eli's doing, I've gotten a lot of value out of this, he's come out with a new course Business and Finance Pro for Photographers, I could use some help in that area. I'll get that course too. That sounds like...

- Yes. It's a very accurate way to sum it up. Definitely have a lot of people who-- like I said -- they go through Real Estate Photographer Pro, they're in a position where their business is doing well, what the heck am I supposed to do now?

And so I knew that, my belief has always been that the best thing I can do is make courses that would have solved my problems; the courses that I wish I had. And so I wish I had Real Estate Photographer Pro, and I was making more money, I was like, what the heck is it? I'm not.

Where's it all going? And so I started to get more financially literate in terms of personal and business finance, and so then I followed it up with a course, based upon what I've learned and experienced the hard way at myself.


- Yes, well. I'm no spring chicken myself. I certainly remember early on in my career; even before photography, I think I've been self-employed, I don't know, gosh! 35 plus years or something . And, I still remember my Dad explaining this concept that I really needed to have a checking account that was different for the business.

I absolutely didn't understand the concept, I just said, well, no, I got one checking account and I generate money from the business that goes into that. I just spend it. Well. How much is your monthly business generating? Well, I don't know, my bank balance is this. ... So I got that much to spend this month.

- Yeah.

- I could imagine that that might be an example of something that's, I don't know, maybe today for me, it's obvious that you're going to have a corporation, it would be separate.

- Yeah and I think the reality is that there's no point in a person's life where they're really going to learn that info if they don't seek it out themselves. And so it's a thing that a lot of people, it's not that they're not smart people, it's just, they've never been told that. I had never been told about that.

Frankly, I wasn't even told about personal. ... This is a business. And so I think it's one of those things that it's a course that a lot of people really should go through, and I think it would benefit them because it's a hole in knowledge that a lot of people have.

There's no way I'm going to become a business owner school. I mean there is. They are called ... going to business school; but those aren't people that start their own businesses, mainly they go work for another one. And so there's all these self-employed people that don't really have a good understanding of the basics and a lot of the stuff that you really need to know to be efficient in your business.

- So I think the way I would describe that is you don't know what you don't know. So, you could take 10, 20, 30 years to figure it out literally, or you can get the right course to help you succeed faster so that you can figure out how you're going to end up saving money, so that you're not running your life out of; how much money is in my checking account today.

- Yeah, yeah.

- Alright, so Business and Finance Pro for Photographers. We Get Around WGAN-TV viewers and WGAN Forum Members: save $400 if you use the WGAN affiliate link, and as a bonus an All Access Pass for 12 months to the WGAN-TV Training Academy. Again: 95 course bundle of all things 3D/360 virtual tours for real estate.


Eli, anything that we haven't discussed about your courses?

- I think we covered it. I mean, we've got a good chance to dive through everything. What I would say is that I'm a big believer in letting people try the courses. And so, as we've said, all of the courses have a full 30 day money back policy. Our courses speak for themselves. ... rarely people return them. And, so I guess I'd leave you with: give it a try and you have no risk. I think you'll enjoy the material.

- Yeah. So a 30 day money back guarantee, if you're not happy for any reason, shoot Eli an email and he is going to credit you back. I think like any good business, you don't want to have people, How would you?

- The way I say it is the Facebook group is a big part of the value, and I don't want anybody in the Facebook group, because they're stuck and bought a course. I want them because they bought a course; realized it was right for them, kept it after the return policy and are invested in growing their business and helping others.

And so for me, it was this straightforward decision. I believe the course is valuable; other people do as well.

So why do I need to hide in and lock it into something you have to decide upfront? I'd rather you decide once you've been through the course. And that's how I look at it.

- Awesome! Forgive me, I'm going to run through the different savings for each course.

- Please.

- So if you've just been tuning in to WGAN-TV Live at 5, we've been visiting with Eli Jones, Founder of four different Real Estate Photographer Pro courses.

We've been talking about which one is right for you. I'm going to go through just the headline of each of the four courses and how much you can save; how to save and how to get a bonus.

First course, Real Estate Photographer Pro, you can save $400 if you use the WGAN affiliate link, ... Crash Course 1: 5 Day 3D Tour professional: save $50, use the WGAN affiliate link, Third course: Crash Course 2: the 5 Day Real Estate Photographer: save $100 when you use WGAN affiliate link, Fourth course from Eli Jones: Business and Finance Pro for Photographers: save $400, use the WGAN affiliate link, and if you buy any one of those courses, you get a bonus of an All Access Pass for 12 months to the WGAN-TV Training Academy.

There are 95 plus courses on all things 3D/360 virtual tours for real estate. We include all the WGAN-TV Live at 5 shows, plus content that's not available anywhere else.

And by the way, just shoot me an email with your paid receipt, And as Eli mentioned, for any of his courses, 30 day money back guarantee, so try it, and if you're not happy with any of his courses, let them know within 30 days.

Oh, by the way, if you still send me the receipt for his course that you used our affiliate link, used a WGAN coupon code: WEGETAROUND ... Our coupon code: WEGETAROUND you'll still get the bonus of an All Access Pass for 12 months to the WGAN-TV Training Academy, regardless if you decide to cancel any of those four courses that you get from Eli. Eli we've covered a lot of ground today about your courses, just before we wrap up, anything else about your courses, we should know?

- A good summary, and I look forward to hearing from anybody who decides to join. If you have any questions or anything, before or after you joined, I'm always here, feel free to send me an email to

- Awesome. Eli Jones, thank you for being on the show today.

- Dan thanks, it was a pleasure.

- We've been visiting again with Eli Jones. Eli is the Founder of Ft. Worth, Texas-based Norman & Young, a photography agency; about 18 team members and also the Creator of all four Real Estate Photographer Pro courses that we've been talking about. For Eli, in the Ft. Worth area,

I'm Dan Smigrod, Founder of the We Get Around Network Forum , and you've been watching WGAN-TV Live at 5. Thumbs up.

We're going to need a little thumbnail here Eli. Two thumbs, two thumbs up. We have a YouTube thumbnail!

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